D&D (2024) The new playtest Exhaustion rules has already fixed the exploration pillar a lot.

[Bill Zebub]

if you have 4 proficiencies and no expertise, skill checks are side show for you. Sure some stealth and knowledge can be a crucial roll, but when you have 11 skill proficiencies and 7 expertise, then skill checks are your main show. and your main show is severely affected by level one exhaustion.

And if you’ve invested in, say Shield Master or Grappler, then ability checks are your bread and butter.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Most players considered the second level already to effectively shut down a hero. Effects of such severity needs to be reserved for many more levels of exhaustion.

Really? Speed halved? That's the infirmity that shut heroes down? That's an opinion that is surprising to me. To me... halving a PCs speed is like the least problematic thing on the entire chart. Outside of combat it just means the PC can't do something else while traveling (as they use their Action to Dash while others use their Action to keep watch or forage or do X)... and in combat PCs have their movement halved due to difficult terrain all the time enough such that it's a handicap we'd think parties are entirely used to dealing with.

I certainly believe these are your feelings, Capn... they're just not one that I would have expected.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think you could make a nice compromise between the two mechanics by having 1dnd’s flat stacking -1s as the baseline exhaustion penalty but 5e’s (or something similar to 5e’s) exhaustion penalties on top of that as specific consequences for how the exhaustion was inflicted in the first place, mentally exhausted from staying up all night researching? Disadvantage on INT, WIS and CHA checks, Recovering from a deadly poisoning or magical affliction? Halved HP, Forced march for days straight? Move speed is halved, Toughed out walking through a desert or climbed a mountain? Disadvantage on STR, DEX and CON checks.

So the -1s are a smaller penalty across the board but there’s a harsher caveat in the specific relevant areas.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem with the old exhaustion is that its was far too punishing, and detrimental to the point where the players would never wish to interact with it beyond the first level, limiting choice and also limiting how you can use it, as giving the party Exhaustion beyond level 1 basically meant a death spiral due to their speed getting halved and attacks being useless to where it critically will drastically slow them down, or they would just die.

The playtest actually fix this by focusing it all on incremental minuses, that isnt much to begin with but add up, this is great design because due to it being far less punishing at first, players can actually choice to interact with it in a meaningful way, and make interesting decisions.

For example, Forced marching is actually an option the players can consider now, only getting level 1 was worth it, and it only marches you for an extra hour before you have to risk the check again which one a failure massively slowed you down. Now since its only a minus one if you fail, its actually worth the risk, especially since slowdowns on, even if you fail all the checks if you wanna move an extra 12 miles, its only a -4 which is about as bad as disadvantage, with not too many slowdowns. This might be worth the risk to some players, and i can see players choosing to march forward to get there, and risk the minuses.

On top if this, due to how brutal the previous exhaustion rules were, the game could not meaningfully use its food and water rules, because it was too brutal, and gave a lot of ways to circumvent it because it was simply not fun or deal with the old exhaustion, now due to it being a much slower progression, it actually isnt too bad, the game can now be harsher on food and water requirements without being too detrimental, and the DM can make scarcity an issue without completely tanking the game after 2 levels of exhaustion, the players can also take more risks in places where food and water isnt plenty, and even take risks and conserve food/rations sometimes.

The best part of all this, is the DM can use exhaustion as a risk or downside to challenges in the wilderness now without completely screwing over the players, now the players can choose between more arduous routes that are shorter, with the risk being taking levels in exhaustion vs the less arduous but longer route, you also can use this as a punishment for failing exploration skill challenges without completely killing the party, you can basically use exhaustion as a long term cost for the exploration pillar, an alternative method of attrition without having to use player resources, and combat, and there are a variety of ways to deliver it, from food and water, costs for failing skill challenges, to a conscious decision of traveling over the more exhausting path. This honestly excites me, and i can see why the design was made.

Pair this with the new long rest rules, and how easy it is to interrupt long rest now, players deciding to not sleep to keep traveling or find an appropriate safe place to rest becomes a viable option, this makes the game imo a lot more interesting. I personally am excited.

What are your thoughts?

TLDR: The new exhaustion rules not being as harsh so quickly, allows the players to actually engage with it as a risk, and DM's to use it as a consequence of exploration, and a way to pressure players outside of just combat/resources, without completely screwing over the players immediately like before.

If they don't fix tiny hut and goodberry, then they've done nothing for exploration. And of course, that's not enough on its own either.

IMO, the reason they weakened exhaustion is just because players hate de-buffs. If anything, exploration is getting less support, given the new ranger lacking any non-spell panacea effects that interact with it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I see what you are saying here, and agree with the sentiment, but always found the stages of exhaustion arbitrary and not particularly evocative. Why do your ability tests always suffer before attack rolls (which are really just a specific kind of ability check).

How about a list of negative effects, with the worst effects toward the end. Every time you gain a level you roll for a new effect with the next size die, starting at d4?

Because there are more complaints about failed attack rolls than failed ability checks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I feel like there has to be a middle ground between evocative but too mechanically harsh to be used often, while easier mechanically while lacking flavor.

To me, that middle ground is Level Up's Fatigue/Strife system.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I think the classic exhaustion is just the right amount of harsh, personally. But I guess I’d rather a nerfed version of it than the version that’s in the UA.

I've always found it very immediately harsh. If there was like one step before that one, one that is "sort of tired" that is like a -2/3 penalty to skills to start out, that feels like it'd be a better fit for what I want. Successive -1s doesn't feel like it works as well within the 5E paradigm (which still feels pretty dominant in 1D&D), on top of being bland.

To me, that middle ground is Level Up's Fatigue/Strife system.

Summary for someone unfamiliar?

 

[Maxperson]

with +3 proficiency and +3 on average ability mod, it's +9

you DC 15 chance goes from 75% to 56%, your DC 20 goes from 50% to 25% and your DC 25 goes from 25% to 6%.

Yep. And the normal guy with his +6(no expertise) is making a DC 15 60% of the time and that DC 20(uncommon at level 6) 35% of the time and DC 25(rare at level 6) 10% of the time. With disadvantage is just a hair below the normal guys. That's hardly the the class concept destruction you are describing.

And those numbers were with the skill monkey being exhausted and the rest of the party not being tired at all. If the rest of the party is also exhausted the skill monkey is still making most of the DC 15s(the lions share of DCs) and can make the uncommon DC 20's 25% of the time, where the rest of the party will have to get super lucky to make it at all.

 

[Charlaquin]

I agree with everything you write.

What you don't talk about, however, is the criticism against the original system: that anything beyond the first level you just avoid at any cost.

I don’t see a problem with that. Of course players would try to avoid it (presumably they would try to avoid the first level too, though they might be a bit more willing to risk it for a sufficient payoff). The thing is, it’s not always avoidable.

 

[Dausuul]

Really? Speed halved? That's the infirmity that shut heroes down? That's an opinion that is surprising to me. To me... halving a PCs speed is like the least problematic thing on the entire chart. Outside of combat it just means the PC can't do something else while traveling (as they use their Action to Dash while others use their Action to keep watch or forage or do X)... and in combat PCs have their movement halved due to difficult terrain all the time enough such that it's a handicap we'd think parties are entirely used to dealing with.

Half speed is devastating. I'd never, ever touch an ability which came with "half speed for the rest of the day" as a cost.

Difficult terrain affects all combatants equally (most of the time), and it is often possible to maneuver around it or bypass it. Having just your speed halved is far worse. If you're a melee warrior, it usually means losing a round of attacks as you close, and each time you need to get to a different place on the battlefield, there goes another round. If you're a ranged attacker or caster, it means you can't escape from the enemy's melee warriors without burning spell power.

And on top of all that, half speed and difficult terrain stack.