Pathfinder 1E The Nimble Ninja versus the Armoured AntiPaladin

Metasyntactic · Aug 19, 2013

Greetings & Good Tidings RP’ers!

Saw some cracking debates going on – so thought I would wade in with our own mini-rift of discussion and get some seasoned expert views.

We’re debating the whole difference between a nimble character (high AC dex based) versus a full plated ‘tank’ style character.

The main points being that nimble characters will have feats to stop them being caught flat footed (so its not like they ever lose their dex bonuses), plus things like magical bracers that give +7 AC as long as no armour is worn.

So in our game, the ninja has an AC of 26-30 and 90-100 HP, where as the AntiPaladin in full plate and heavy shield has an AC of 24 and 80-90 HP.

The ninja has feets that boost this – and the AntiPaladin does have spells etc, but with a skill focus mainly on intimidation and the sort (so more skill driven than actual ‘tank’)

Without actually rolling it – theres a debate who would win in a fight. With poisoned katanas versus a sword/halberd, the damage is actually pretty even – perhaps slightly in favour of the AntiP, but it does seem a little too close – considering what the characters ‘are’.

Pros and Cons? Observations?

I dare say that if the AntiP unleashed even some Lv2 spells (Blindness, Scare) along with the Corruption Touch, this would certainly hurt, but with it being touch – then we’re back into CMB/CMD which is weighted in the favour of the ‘nimble’ ninja all jumpy and dodgy.

How do people perceive this sort of battle?

Blackbrrd · Aug 19, 2013

This is my view:
Ninja > Samurai > Anti-Paladin > Paladin

No surprise that the ninja wins, although I do think that a game system that lets the lightly armored character have better defenses than the highly armored character has gone wrong at some point...

(Psi)SeveredHead · Aug 19, 2013

In theory, they should be balanced (if a ninja curbstomps a samurai, it's because Hanzo is a higher-level ninja than the samurai he just beat), but of course it's actually a team game.

Ninja (and rogues) are reliant on teams for "free" sneak attacking. But they get spells, depending on level. So, which level?

Metasyntactic said:
Greetings & Good Tidings RP’ers!

Saw some cracking debates going on – so thought I would wade in with our own mini-rift of discussion and get some seasoned expert views.

We’re debating the whole difference between a nimble character (high AC dex based) versus a full plated ‘tank’ style character.

The main points being that nimble characters will have feats to stop them being caught flat footed (so its not like they ever lose their dex bonuses), plus things like magical bracers that give +7 AC as long as no armour is worn.

So in our game, the ninja has an AC of 26-30 and 90-100 HP, where as the AntiPaladin in full plate and heavy shield has an AC of 24 and 80-90 HP.

How did the ninja get so many hit points?

The ninja has feets that boost this – and the AntiPaladin does have spells etc, but with a skill focus mainly on intimidation and the sort (so more skill driven than actual ‘tank’)

Without actually rolling it – theres a debate who would win in a fight. With poisoned katanas versus a sword/halberd, the damage is actually pretty even – perhaps slightly in favour of the AntiP, but it does seem a little too close – considering what the characters ‘are’.

Ninja with katana? *Sigh* Anti-paladins casting Blind... which is a very nasty spell against a Dex-monkey, but if the ninja can stay invisible the anti-paladin can't even find them. The anti-paladin shouldn't bother with touch spells, not against someone who can move like the wind.

Metasyntactic · Aug 19, 2013

Some valid points.

Not sure how he has so many HP. I would have to double check his HP dice, see if he has Toughness or the like – then assess. Just look to see if the rolls are viable (did he roll 10 8s in a row?)

These are level 12 characters by the by.

I don’t think the Ninja does have spells… Or at least I haven’t seem/witness him cast any. Perhaps he has some illusion things he hasn’t used yet.

I think most of the AntiP damage is from Touch, like Corruption. But spells like Litany of Sight would make his invisibility (if he had it) useless.

If we’re talking one-on-one (which I think they are), then yes, the chance of the ninja stealthing and flanking/backstabbing the AntiP is pretty long shot.

As stated, the AntiP is very skill based and not tank’ish. So Perception etc is incredibly high (although would most DMs out there allow a Stealth Check versus Targets Perception?)

I do think that a game system that lets the lightly armored character have better defenses than the highly armored character has gone wrong at some point...

I used to remember this (way back when) as pure DR. Plate would have 5-6/DR or something. But the mentalitiy has changed now that an Armour Class is your ability to be hit.

So if you’re a “Dex Monkey” (cracking term!) then you are harder to hit – where as Full Plate is easy to hit but harder to penetrate for an actual ‘hit’ (i.e. damage).

But with those ridiculous bracers plus feats boosting AC, it does seem a little biased. I play quite a lot of Rogue/Archers, so stick out of trouble mostly, so don’t get into many of these problems understanding how two other characters will play out. Saying that, my Elvish Archer/Rogue still has 20-something AC at level 8-9.

Just seems bizarre.

I think with the AntiPs Fiendish Boon weapon (+3 at Lv12) that does give a +19/+14/+9 to hit on a full round of attacking – so you’d think even against the 29AC (ish) of the Ninja, that could still be 1/2 hits a round at D10+9

Just depends on what the Ninja is hitting for. Plus, poisons wouldn’t have any affect on the AntiP // Plague Bearer benefit.

Cadence · Aug 19, 2013

So the Ninja has more hit points (higher level?) and more magic? And one of the anti-paladin's big tools is useless because he's facing another evil character?

Seems sub-optimal for a general tank versus dex comparison.

Metasyntactic · Aug 19, 2013

The Ninja isn’t Evil, I think he’s CN… But fairly sure he’s Neutral something.

Both characters are Level 12.

But magic is unknown, as I don’t know Ninja build that well (so don’t understand what they get). I just about know AntiP from years of knowledge of Paladins.

But this isn’t a mere Tank versus Dex Monkey.

More the argument of Armour versus Nimble’ness in terms of AC.

The AntiP isn’t by any means a tank, more an agent of corruption (skill focus, Intimidation, Bluff, Sense Motive, Perception, so more a Clever Manipulator). Plenty of ‘Fear’ based magic too, which coupled with their auras (Fear, Evil etc). Hmm, whilst I'm writing it – sounds a bit more Darth Sidious! Haha. Uses morale as a weapon. Blindness, Disease, Stun, Paralysis, Shaken, Frighten, etc.

But if you take the ‘extras’ out of it and went for a hit-for-hit, I think the Paladin would have it, due to better base attack (number and bonus). Without whipping the book out, I couldn’t confirm if a ninja is better than +12/7/2

But in my own mind, you’d think that if an AntiPaladin landed a hit on a no-armour ninja with an unholy instrument of fear (haha) then it should do more damage than a ninja flailing at full plate with a Katana.

Arguably, finding the gap in the armour to land the hit, would be less of a hit then an overhead strike with a two handed Halberd on un-armoured-adversaries.

I think I'm just struggling to play it out in my head.

I think we might have to homebrew some rules concerning damage reduction or something… Just to even up the ‘taking damage’ side of things.

Taking out the AC argument, if the two above characters took a hit from a long sword – surely they would both be able to take a different level of punishment.

Or perhaps they are both not fighting to their advantages. Perhaps the Paladin (with weight/strength) would do well grappling – but getting a ninja in a grapple would be difficult.

Hmm… I don’t think theres a definitive answer out there

Ratskinner · Aug 19, 2013

Blackbrrd said:
No surprise that the ninja wins, although I do think that a game system that lets the lightly armored character have better defenses than the highly armored character has gone wrong at some point...

I think that's just a fundamental issue with wrapping "evasion" into the same number as "hard" or "tough". The way AC and HPs are traditionally defined is so abstract its almost non-sense. I mean, one could make a case for almost any of the ability scores to affect either one or both of them.

The only method I've seen that makes sense of it is taken in Dungeon World and FATE:Accelerated Edition. In those games, when something puts you at risk of harm, you have to describe how you are responding. So your evasiveness, inherent toughnesses, and armor don't end up stacking in ways that make you scratch your head.

(Psi)SeveredHead · Aug 19, 2013

Metasyntactic said:
Both characters are Level 12.

That AC seems low for level 12.

But magic is unknown, as I don’t know Ninja build that well (so don’t understand what they get). I just about know AntiP from years of knowledge of Paladins.

The ninja is a controversial class in Pathfinder because it has magic (and basically has all the rogue stuff). Unless you meant the ninja archetype of the rogue.

But this isn’t a mere Tank versus Dex Monkey.

More the argument of Armour versus Nimble’ness in terms of AC.

We would need breakdowns of AC. Before 4th Edition, AC was based mainly on ability scores and magic items. In 3rd Edition this is only somewhat predictable. It's very easy for a DM to not give out the right amount of magic items. Shields complicate the issue.

Given the ninja's lack of optimization, it's quite possible the players didn't optimize their AC properly either. For instance, it's not a good idea to buy a really good magic armor and then a weak ring of protection. Splitting the costs as evenly as possible is more optimized than that (even if it's not necessarily the most optimal way of boosting AC). The anti-paladin has a pretty low AC score for being 12th-level. The ninja should also not be using +7 bracers of armor, that's 49,000 gp on one item. They should split that cost between cheaper bracers (+3 goes for 9,000 gp, +4 goes for 16,000 gp) and spending the rest on Dex-boosting items (up to +3), ring of protection (+1 goes for 2,000 gp, +2 for 8,000 gp) and an amulet of natural armor (same prices as the ring). With +3 bracers, +2 ring and +2 amulet, you spend 25,000 gp and get the same benefit. Now put the rest into gloves of Dexterity and you can boost your AC by another 3 points and +3 to hit, provided he took Weapon Finesse, and why wouldn't he?

But if you take the ‘extras’ out of it and went for a hit-for-hit, I think the Paladin would have it, due to better base attack (number and bonus). Without whipping the book out, I couldn’t confirm if a ninja is better than +12/7/2

How does a ninja have such a low attack bonus? They should have taken Weapon Finesse. The anti-paladin probably won't win just by swinging, they need to use their actual abilities. Blind and then use Corrupting Touch.

But in my own mind, you’d think that if an AntiPaladin landed a hit on a no-armour ninja with an unholy instrument of fear (haha) then it should do more damage than a ninja flailing at full plate with a Katana.

Oh right, the ninja is using a katana. Unless ninjas can finesse katanas, that was a really unoptimized choice on the player's part. It's not even thematic.

Taking out the AC argument, if the two above characters took a hit from a long sword – surely they would both be able to take a different level of punishment.

The anti-paladin should have had more hit points. I don't know why he doesn't.

Or perhaps they are both not fighting to their advantages. Perhaps the Paladin (with weight/strength) would do well grappling – but getting a ninja in a grapple would be difficult.

It's Pathfinder. Noone actually wants to use the grappling rules. Trust me on this.

I think, from what I'm reading, the battle will actually be boring. The anti-paladin might forget his abilities, complain that he can't smite the ninja, and just swing, eventually (probably) winning. It'll be a slow DPS race. The ninja's oversized weapon will just bounce off the anti-paladin, and there will be no sneak attacking if he doesn't use his spells to turn invisible. (And even then, he can only attack once or twice per round, as the anti-paladin will probably start moving to keep down the number of attacks.)

Metasyntactic · Aug 20, 2013

Some more cracking points.

I too thought the AntiP looked low. Even the other fighter in the party claims a ridiculous AC and he too is wearing Full Plate, but no shield.

I have the AntiP character sheet (hence my better knowledge of this character) but the Ninja one was left at where we play. Doh.

The AntiP AC is Base 10 + Folding Plate +10 + Max Dex +1 (From +3) + Dodge +1 + Large Metal Shield +2 = 24 AC

And from memory, the Ninja is something like Base 10 + Bracers +7 + Ring/Amulet of Protection +2 + Dex +5 + Dodge +1 + Size Bonus +1 (Halfling) = AC 26 (off the top of my head – I dare say theres more somewhere)

Even if the AntiPaladin was level 4, he would still have the same AC – I don’t see how AC can improve over levels, unless the DM grants some magical loveliness

As for hit points, a level 12 Anti-Paladin, with D10 hit points x 12 (+12x +1 Con Bonus), if they rolled an average 5 per roll, that would be 60 + 12 + Toughness 12 = 84.

So could just have been bad rolls.

In those games, when something puts you at risk of harm, you have to describe how you are responding. So your evasiveness, inherent toughnesses, and armor don't end up stacking in ways that make you scratch your head.

That’s a brilliant system, I might have to try and steal an element of that when I next DM. Actually describing the defence! Brilliant. People tend to describe how they are attacking, styles, cleave etc, so why not defence. I like it.

I have mocked up the character sheet for the AntiP on PCGen and I have a HTM File (and TXT) file of the character… If theres a way to attach here – would love to do that. Give everyone a look – they might point out something missed – or something foolish!