The Ninja Warlock

[Benly]

I don't have the books, but at least in 3e pointing and yelling "Get him!" would be a free action.

So your warlock does his thing and hides. Depending on the enemies' initiative order, the dragonshields either blindly attack likely squares, or the wyrmpriest goes first and points out where you are. At that point, I presume the dragonshields can see you and attack you normally, correct?

There is no reason to believe that they can see you at that point, as you still have concealment and are still using it to hide. They can attack where the wyrmpriest is pointing, although it's quite a trick to point out a specific space; in that case, they take a -5 penalty to hit you assuming they swing at the right square. Of course, a fey pact warlock is likely to be teleporting all over the place, so they might not still be targeting the right space by the time their attacks come up.

It's not a flawless defense by a long shot; enemies can still blanket the area with fireballs or whatnot. It is, however, a very nice defense, especially if you crank up your Stealth check.

This also raises (for me at least) the question of whether a creature that's been Warlock's Cursed knows it's been cursed. It's quite feasible (in theory, at least) for the Ninja Warlock to skulk around the battlefield unseen before his buddies show up and get everyone cursed up in preparation. The disadvantage, of course, being that if you do get spotted you're out there alone...

 

[mrtomsmith]

This also raises (for me at least) the question of whether a creature that's been Warlock's Cursed knows it's been cursed. It's quite feasible (in theory, at least) for the Ninja Warlock to skulk around the battlefield unseen before his buddies show up and get everyone cursed up in preparation. The disadvantage, of course, being that if you do get spotted you're out there alone...

From what I've heard, the books are pretty clear that if you get a condition (such as Curse), you not only know that you have it, but you know exactly the effect it will have. The example usually given is marking - intelligent enemies can adjust their behavior to avoid taking marking penalties. Which suggests that they'd notice the curse as well.

 

[livinginarizona]

They're completely different bonuses, so yes, racial stacks with training.

As for your question, you'd roll stealth. First, you have to beat their passive perception, or 10+their perception. If you do that, they can actively search for you on their turn, this time actually rolling their perception. In your example, you rolled a 17. If their passive perception is 17 or higher, or if their roll on their next turn beats that number, then you didn't manage to hide at all.

And even if someone fails to see you, it only takes one guy with a high perception to say "he's right there!", followed by a barrage of Area and Close attacks that do not take penalties against targets that can't be seen.

In my example, when I got 17 (10 from the roll, +2 racial and +5 from the skill), does my Dex modifier enter into the equation? I know in 3.5 skill checks included the primary skill into the roll (it's primary stat + ranks in skill+any additional modifiers)....

let me see if I understand the sequence then:

1. I attack.
2. I move 3 squares stealthily at end of my turn. d20 + 7 vs perception
3. This triggers Shadow Walk.
4. At end of my turn, skill checks. d20 - 5 vs my passive stealth.

And since "If the perceivers/opponents don't "beat" my score by 10 then they know I'm there, but not what square I'm in. Just his "existence" and "direction".

Do I have the sequence right?

 

[Aezoc]

Yeah, from http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a

Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin.

So that part won't work.

There is no reason to believe that they can see you at that point, as you still have concealment and are still using it to hide. They can attack where the wyrmpriest is pointing, although it's quite a trick to point out a specific space; in that case, they take a -5 penalty to hit you assuming they swing at the right square. Of course, a fey pact warlock is likely to be teleporting all over the place, so they might not still be targeting the right space by the time their attacks come up.

I know you wanted to discuss the RAW, but I sort of doubt there's anything written one way or the other about how clearly one creature can visually indicate a particular square to another creature. I think a reasonable interpretation would be that the wyrmpriest indicates the square in which he sees the warlock (points + "Over there by the <whatever>, you idiots!"), and then the two dragonshields run up, use their minor actions to attempt active perception checks, and either swing at the warlock or at the space (-5 attack penalty).

It does sound like a pretty fun character concept, although I'm a little disappointed in how clunky the stealth mechanics appear to be in this case as well, what with the passive and active perception checks and having to track the last stealth check result.

 

[Vempyre]

Allowing a warlock to hide and become non visible using stealth with the Shadow Walk concealment as a basis to allow it : Nope.

Saying yes would be akin to giving the 'lock invisibility, which Shadow Walk clearly ain't.

If the warlock multiclasses and get some rogue powers like hide in plain sight, then yes, maybe. But not until then.

Shadow Walk is not a "normal concealment" as in there isn't actually anything concealing you, you are just a bit blurry/shadowy. Having the stealth skill can't improve that "blurr" as if you are now invisible.

Anybody actually trying that in one of my games would get a big quack on the head from my part for trying to very obviously break and abuse a rule.

 

[chaotix42]

At the end of A's turn they make an opposed stealth roll (-5 -- because it moved more than 2 squares in it's turn) vs it's opponent's passive stealth checks. BUT the perceiver (in this case x,y,z) have to "beat" the stealth check by 10 to actually see the hider (A).
[Yes, it says, "beat" even though the perceivers (x,y,z) aren't rolling].
If the perceivers (x,y,z) don't "beat" A by 10 then they know he's there, but not what square he's in. Just his "existence" and "direction".
Of course, since he's just blasted the snot out of somebody, his "existence and direction" are probably pretty well known to the monsters anyway.

Ummmm, that's only if the target has superior cover or superior concealment. Shadow Walk only grants concealment so they don't have to beat his Stealth check by 10 or any of that other stuff.

 

[Stalker0]

The shadowwalk/stealth combo is very good, except for the fact your always going to be taking a -5 to your stealth check, because you moved more than 2 squares.

I think the hide in plain sight aspect of it is a purposeful class feature of the class, because when the Warlock was shown at DDXP this came up very quickly, and no one at WOTC has changed the ability to prevent it.

 

[MindWanderer]

I think the hide in plain sight aspect of it is a purposeful class feature of the class, because when the Warlock was shown at DDXP this came up very quickly, and no one at WOTC has changed the ability to prevent it.

One developer even mentioned deliberately pursuing this cheese. He didn't describe the exact mechanics, but he did describe doing exactly that.

 

[Eldorian]

Where are you all getting that active perception is a minor action? The perception skill says it's a standard.


Btw, thanks for pointing this out to me. I was starting to think the warlock was unimpressive, despite the fact I had wanted to play one. But now, I like it. Shoot, move, gain concealment, finish move "stealthily". Make stealth check against everyone's passive perception. Success means they don't know what square you're in, just general direction (they saw you moving after you shot). If they are told what square you're in, it's a -5 to hit. Failure, still a -2 to hit.

 

[Benly]

The shadowwalk/stealth combo is very good, except for the fact your always going to be taking a -5 to your stealth check, because you moved more than 2 squares.

This is why you take the rogue multiclass for the "move and hide without penalty" utility power. If you're willing to wait a few levels, the Secret Stride feat will do the same thing with fewer feats invested, but it's not like a warlock is drowning in heroic-tier feats anyway. If you take Secret Stride you can retrain to Hide In Plain Sight for occasions where your mobility is restricted.

I think the hide in plain sight aspect of it is a purposeful class feature of the class, because when the Warlock was shown at DDXP this came up very quickly, and no one at WOTC has changed the ability to prevent it.

I'm glad to hear this is officially sanctioned and unlikely to be errataed away. Personally I think it's a nice way to make up for warlocks' relatively low damage output compared to other strikers.