The one fighter to rule them all....

[TheRelinquished]

(Beware: Long Post.)
(Note: Skip to very bottom for short version.)
So the story starts with the first campaign I ever participated in with my current group. It was set in Eberron and included three players: myself, my friend Steven, our DM, and our friend James. We began with a group of three PCs--my elven sorc, Steven's warforged fighter, and James' gnome ranger. But the campaign was poorly organized and we soon became bored. James left, and our DM was tired of sitting out on the action. So, we decided to spice things up a bit....

First of all, our DM added a paladin to our group as his character. Then Steven and I adopted new characters to pair up with our old ones, essentially putting us in control of two PCs at once (possibly not the best idea). Steven made a swashbuckler, and I made a human fighter.

It wasn't more than a month later when our DM decided that our party had become out of balance and that my human fighter was "too well made" to continue in this game. Thus, we retired our characters and started a new campaign.

Having been recently reminded of that old fighter, I decided that I would take it upon myself to attempt to design "The One [Human] Fighter to Rule Them All".

I first decided that it had to be of high level, but not of a level so high that it would seem ridiculous to anyone who hadn't played a character in the teens. I settled on level 10 as a happy midpoint. From there I decided that the character would have to be offensively and defensively versatile, and that none of its attributes could fail to compliment the character's strengths.

Since I play high power campaigns, I allowed myself to use a set of remarkable stats that I'd rolled up sometime ago--all sixteens. I decided this would not only increase the character's formidability a great deal, but would round it out in terms of skills, and other stat based benefits, leaving it with no obvious vulnerabilities.

The feats make the fighter, so I followed a Two-Weapon theme that I used with my previous fighter, and paired it with what are possibly my two favorite feats in D&D: Combat Expertise, and Improved Combat Expertise. Then I built the rest around a fantastic trip feat that I found in Complete Warrior, leaving me with a warrior as capable as Lancelot and as invulnerable as Achilles.

I complimented his style with some nice items that fit into his budget based on the guidelines for starting gold in the DM's Guide, including a pair of Keen weapons and a Breastplate with Medium Fortification. This added the killing edge to my fighter.

Last to be decided were his skills, which I decided based on his personality and style. Here you'll see I included Knowledge (tactics), what I consider to be a fighter class skill which first appeared to me in a PC class called the Shinobi, that I have house-ruled in to my games. This is because I believe all [literate] classes should have a Knowledge skill and because I subscribe to Rich Burlew's ideas concerning the modified rules for Knowledge skills (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0019.html). All skills listed are skills that have a modifier other than the characters ability scores.

And now we come to the fighter himself (yes, himself). I present to you, the one fighter to rule them all, per the file attached to this post. I beseech your opinions.

(If you've skipped down to here, then here it is: I'm very good with human fighters, and I thought I could make one of the best ever. So go ahead and view it's stats on the file attached to this post and tell me what you think.)

 

[Lord Wyrm]

You should include a ranged weapon, cause two weapons are great but do nothing when the dragon / mage / demon takes to the air and starts pelting you with spells or (in the case of the dragon) breath weapons. Nice feat selection. I do like the fact you took a knowledge skill, I generally stat my characters with a knowledge, a craft, or a profession (what do they do when they're not killing dragons? )

 

[FEADIN]

Moderate fortification gives you 75% immunity to critical and sneak, not 50%
Maybe energy weapons would be better than keen on the long run.

 

[TheRelinquished]

I thought the same thing about ranged weapons, but I can't quite decide what to use. With my last fighter, I carried a Greatsword, a pair of throwing axes, and a pair of daggers. That way I could switch between styles at any moment--single weapon, two weapon, and throwing. With more than one option for each style, of course.

I'm inclined to think that he should use a bow, perhaps a Mighty Composite Longbow. That way he can still get all of his attacks (as opposed to a crossbow) and his strength modifier. Make it a +1 for being level 10 (I still had money left over from his starting gold anyway) and I think that would do it, hmm?

Energy weapons? That may be a good idea. Though DR concerns me. Even a lowly Planetouched can overcome that ability :/. Do you suggest any one in particular?

(view document attached to this reply for changes)

And I'm glad that you like my choice to take a Knowledge skill. It's one of my many attempts to drag the fighter away from the "big dumb swordsman" stereotype. ^_^

Post Scriptum:
To all readers--in case you can't see the mainest one-on-one tactic that this fighter uses in combat, it's actually based on putting the opponent down and kicking the bejezus out of him, as it were.

Full defense, Dodge and full Combat Expertise with both weapons first round. That gives an AC boost of 15 for a total of 39 AC. Assuming the resulting attack on him fails, he then gets to activate his defensive throw feat and attempt to trip the opponent.

When and if he succeeds, he takes a full attack action the next round and launches four attacks. Then if the opponent tries to act, they just provoke rampant attacks of opportunity. It's rather viscious.

[EDIT]
Thanks for the correction. I must've read the SRD wrong. It is 75%.

 

[FEADIN]

At least one energy weapon if not both, maybe cold or fire for the undeads, you keep the keen for monsters subject to critical hits.

 

[TheRelinquished]

Perhaps I could merely carry an alternate weapon in case of undead. But I think I want to move away from the idea of energy (I'm not a big fan of the abilities, and I don't want to worry about energy DR).

In addition to the aforementioned weapons, I could equip him with a Disrupting Heavy Flail. Two-handed, bludgeoning 1d10, 19-20 x2 critical, and a DC 14 Will save by undead to avoid being obliterated completely when struck. I think that's a fine anti-undead weapon.

Yes, or no?

 

[Fighter1]

Your fighter looks good; but there is a couple of things I am unsure of:

Weapons
You do need a ranged weapon; with those high ability scores getting Quick Draw and using javelins would work quite well.

As far as keen goes; it is OK but given the incremental costs of an enhanced weapon I would say the feat Improved Critical is a more worthwhile investment

Tumble From the SRD :

You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

In medium armor your slowed from 30’ to 20’. Even if somehow you bump it back up to 30’ I would still call it as being slowed; as the “slowing” is meant to represent encumbrance from armor just like the Armor Check.

Other Skill Choices: It seems you may be over in your allotted skill points. I count 87 as opposed to 78; perhaps I am missing a synergy or two at first glance but that does not make up the difference (I could be off on this; just a quick observation)

Your skills are all over the place; some of those skills you have are not really useful to a fighter type – but then again that is my opinion (call my old-fashioned in my skill selections!)

I have almost always played 3.0/3.5 in a 40 point buy system. With your character here you have a 60-point buy Using the normal scenario of an 8 base; 1 point for 9-14, 2 points for 15-16 and 3 points for 17-18 plus the two points from levels (4th and 8th). This allows you to take more advantage of various feats; like a good strength and dexterity and intelligence…i.e. Attack & damage rolls, TWF feats and CE.

Overall This guy looks pretty good for a TWF. You seem to have some solid and creative ideas on how to build and use a character - I would love to see you build something within a 40-point buy framework to see what you came up with.

In any event - my experiences with success have been different. I have found that the sword and shield works best (yup I am old fashioned – the old sword & board!).

Why? Because you have the offensive and defensive balance without incurring penalties by default like you do with TWF and using CE a whole lot; you have more choices you can make. Not to mention that TWF sucks up feats like a vacuum and also forces you to push attribute scores into more places; such as Strength and Dexterity instead of just Strength and a moderate Dexterity (noting I am referring to a more average set of scores). I know that in some situations a TWF is better, and in others a two handed weapon is better – but think about it – the sword & board is good at ANY situation. Plus he does not have a set of must have feats ahead of him – there are more choices he can make.

But all of that is open to opinion; some prefer the additional attacks of TWF and don’t care about the penalties, others the extra damage of using a two handed weapon…me – I’m in the middle – that is just what I have found to be the most effective in the campaigns I have been a part of.
.


At 10th level one of my most favorite PC’s had the following:
1. Weapon Focus - Long Sword
2. Greater Weapon Focus - Long Sword
3. Weapon Specialization - Long Sword
4. Improved Critical - Long Sword
5. Power Attack
6. Cleave
7. Great Cleave
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Quick Draw
10. Iron Will
11. Endurance (he wore medium armor; had a higher Dex Score (16))

At 12th Level he took Shock Trooper (awesome feat!) and Greater Weapon Specialization.

 

[TheRelinquished]

Thank you very much for the constructive input. I appreciate your criticisms, and I'm most inrigued by the idea of javelins as a ranged weapon (though I admit that I'm a greater fan of the bow which requires no additional feats ^_^). But I think I should point out a few details that should clear things up:

His armor is a +1 Mithral Breastplate with Medium fortification. Thus his armor is considered light, and it does not encumber his movement at all. I'm sorry I failed to mention that.

Also, I did not use a point-buy system for this fighter's abilities (though I've learned more about such systems recently and I'm interested in trying it). As crazy as it sounds, I rolled these stats with a roll-4-drop-lowest system some time ago. Thus I understand his stats are otherworldly. But to be fair, this is the kind of character I've been saving them for. ^_^

Now, I understand that the entire build for this fighter is....unorthodox. Having obviously concentrated on skills and feats that most might consider secondary when compared to feats like Quick Draw or Weapon Focus. However, it is my belief that there are (primarily) two sorts of fighters: the tacticians, and the tanks (not to be confused with the common term for high HP, combat-oriented characters).

The latter is the classic interpretation of a fighter, often relying on ol' faithful (the board and sword) and feats that make it easier to dish out death with that lovely set of equipment. They rely on brute strength and "direct solutions" to solve their problems. This also usually means that Intelligence and Charisma become dump stats, and every day is a quest for a better suit of Full Plate. What you usually end up with is something that scoffs at a sword in the gut, and that spells death to anything less than a d8 within reach of his swordarm. A more than formidable opponent.

On the other end of the spectrum lies the aforementioned tactician. The tacticianis an opportunist, of sorts, preferring to focus on not getting hit and rearranging the situation so that his opponent becomes an easy target. This form of fighter relies on a balance of skills and abilities that can allow him to change tactics in a battle at the last moment, and secure victory over opponents of any kind. Particular weapons are usually not as important to this sort of fighter, since they focus on what they can do besides attack to win a battle. Nor are particular armors important, except that they tend to lean towards lighter armors, or at least those which will encumber them less.

Obviously, I lean more towards the tactician end of the spectrum. I've found in my experience that alternative tactics, such as feinting, tripping, and the use of the Tumble skill, are remarkably effective against your average brute. But coming from a primarily caster PC background, you can understand why I take such a toolbox approach to things.

As to your comment about the reliability of the shield and sword compared to TWF, I think I tried to mimic that here. I understand it seems inefficient to use four feats on this aspect of my fighter, however, playing the devil's advocate, I would argue it is inefficient to spend so many feats that rely on the idea that you will always have your choice weapon(s).

Even stark naked my fighter can use unarmed attacks (both fists) for lethal damage and can set his AC anywhere from 10 to 20 (11 to 21 including Dodge), while still benefitting from his Defensive Throw feat to additionally thwart unsuccessful aggressors. ^_^

But that's an extreme example. I'm glad you liked the fighter, and I will take your ideas to heart for any future tank builds.

If you'd really like to see what I can cook up on a point-buy with any kind of character, let me know. Among my groups I'm infamous for making extremely well engineered characters--even under far more restricted conditions.

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Fighter1]

Thank you very much for the constructive input. I appreciate your criticisms, and I'm most inrigued by the idea of javelins as a ranged weapon (though I admit that I'm a greater fan of the bow which requires no additional feats ^_^). But I think I should point out a few details that should clear things up:

His armor is a +1 Mithral Breastplate with Medium fortification. Thus his armor is considered light, and it does not encumber his movement at all. I'm sorry I failed to mention that. .

No problem

Also, I did not use a point-buy system for this fighter's abilities (though I've learned more about such systems recently and I'm interested in trying it). As crazy as it sounds, I rolled these stats with a roll-4-drop-lowest system some time ago. Thus I understand his stats are otherworldly. But to be fair, this is the kind of character I've been saving them for. ^_^.

That is actually not a point buy system (at least as defined directly or indirectly by publishers). Point buy involves no dice at all. I am not necessarily critizing your character for the high scores just pointing out he can do far more than most can because of those stats.

Now, I understand that the entire build for this fighter is....unorthodox.
Having obviously concentrated on skills and feats that most might consider secondary when compared to feats like Quick Draw or Weapon Focus. However, it is my belief that there are (primarily) two sorts of fighters: the tacticians, and the tanks (not to be confused with the common term for high HP, combat-oriented characters).

Ok…follow ya…

The latter is the classic interpretation of a fighter, often relying on ol' faithful (the board and sword) and feats that make it easier to dish out death with that lovely set of equipment. They rely on brute strength and "direct solutions" to solve their problems. This also usually means that Intelligence and Charisma become dump stats, and every day is a quest for a better suit of Full Plate. What you usually end up with is something that scoffs at a sword in the gut, and that spells death to anything less than a d8 within reach of his swordarm. A more than formidable opponent.

Now that is just plain bigotry! :--) I am going to sue you over discrimination of dump stats!!!! :--) You think that just because my fighter can’t get a good diplomacy roll as yours yours is better than mine! :--) My lawyer will answer that question in court!!! :--)

I read to much OoTS

Just kidding…

But honestly that is really not the case at all. For example a 10th level fighter (so he gets two points for leveling as well) with a 40 point buy:

Strength: 18
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 10

A fighter can choose all sorts of cross-class skills to round out the character concept; mine usually do. However they are also skills that tend to be either combat oriented (fighter skills – ya got to know how to ride and swim!) and social stuff; not the sleight of hand and such that your character chose. More along the language and knowledge, diplomacy and such.

With the build above here I use Breastplate and take the endurance feat to go with it and get nearly the same benefit as full plate (full plate with a zero dex mod). I could move a few numbers around and get other scores higher or lower…

On the other end of the spectrum lies the aforementioned tactician. The tacticianis an opportunist, of sorts, preferring to focus on not getting hit and rearranging the situation so that his opponent becomes an easy target. This form of fighter relies on a balance of skills and abilities that can allow him to change tactics in a battle at the last moment, and secure victory over opponents of any kind.

Any fighter can do this regardless of concept; one just needs to know how to take feats as a wizard takes spells; with forethought (which you obviously have). For example your character here could take many of those same feats whilst being a Sword & Board Fighter or using a two handed weapon.

For example I LOVE I mean LOVE Shock Trooper. Why? Well it allows me to use the Bull Rush action for a lot of fun stuff including knocking two bad guys on their arse! But that is not all! I do it so I am not the only guy that gets the AoO when they go to stand up! Not to mention the Heedless Charge…

I have played Sword & Board fighters that had CE, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc. It works all ways

I also adore Cleaving – awesome mechanic. If I take great cleave I can even cleave on AoO’s! This is one of those feats truly meant for a fighter.

Particular weapons are usually not as important to this sort of fighter, since they focus on what they can do besides attack to win a battle. Nor are particular armors important, except that they tend to lean towards lighter armors, or at least those which will encumber them less.

As to your comment about the reliability of the shield and sword compared to TWF, I think I tried to mimic that here. I understand it seems inefficient to use four feats on this aspect of my fighter, however, playing the devil's advocate, I would argue it is inefficient to spend so many feats that rely on the idea that you will always have your choice weapon(s).

That is preference; in my own book that is a liability; many dexterity type fighters (such as TWF) get weapon focus and such because they already know what weapons they’ll be using. Sure it might change; but the +2 with the two weapon focus feats is equal to two levels of fighter with regards to BAB. Most people in general use the same weapons throughout their character’s career; some may jump around…but most don’t from my experience.

Obviously, I lean more towards the tactician end of the spectrum. I've found in my experience that alternative tactics, such as feinting, tripping, and the use of the Tumble skill, are remarkably effective against your average brute. But coming from a primarily caster PC background, you can understand why I take such a toolbox approach to things.

Again with the stats this character has you can do all that with ease. With more normal ones you would be hard pressed to be able to do all of this.

Even stark naked my fighter can use unarmed attacks (both fists) for lethal damage and can set his AC anywhere from 10 to 20 (11 to 21 including Dodge), while still benefitting from his Defensive Throw feat to additionally thwart unsuccessful aggressors. ^_^

I see what you are saying however, unless you have improved unarmed strike you can’t deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes. But I would say that if your character got into such a situation that he really is not using that +3 to Intelligence and Wisdom very well! :--)

But that's an extreme example. I'm glad you liked the fighter, and I will take your ideas to heart for any future tank builds.

If you'd really like to see what I can cook up on a point-buy with any kind of character, let me know. Among my groups I'm infamous for making extremely well engineered characters--even under far more restricted conditions.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Good deal – and thank you for sharing your ideas as they have gotten my own juices going on a few things…

 

[Ubiaratne the weird]

Why, why, why, does everyone seem to think a fighter should have a ranged weapon? if you get just one more feat or cough up just a little more dough, you can get it so that you can throw your main weapons and dont need a bow or other ranged weapon. also, since you are tenth level, consider using alchemical fire and other alchemy products with a sling. Believe me, it's devastating to opponents.