D&D 5E (2014) 'The Paladin as King': Cutting Through the Hype

[Leugren]

Are you interested in experiences with multiclass Paladins like Paladin 7/Wild Sorcerer 4? I've avoided pure Paladins because paladorcs are so obviously better.

Also, do you care about observations on feats?

Sure, I'd be interested, Hemlock. What's your level-to-level progression for this build? Why wild sorcerer as opposed to draconic? Have you found any hidden pain points in actual play? Any observations on feats would be welcome as well. Do you advocate picking up key feats early or maximizing your key ability scores first? Why?

 

[Leugren]

Should this discussion be on this board? It's not about character build or optimization.... If you're looking to optimize for DPR you obviously go Veng with a 2 Handed Sword. Not sure why this is here? Moderator? EN falling off?

If getting the dirt on paladin mechanics from people who have actually played a paladin doesn't fall into your narrow definition of "Character Builds and Optimization", then I'm not sure what to say. I am skeptical of white-room theorycrafting, and seek to avoid traps that only manifest themselves in actual play. Anyone can read a few pages from a book and determine that a Vengeance Paladin with a Polearm (not a Greatsword) is going to have the highest DPR. I can do math without anyone's help. The real value of forums such as these is to learn from other peoples' actual play experiences.

 

[mellored]

As mentioned, range is the biggest weakness of a paladin. Aura's are their biggest strength, but also keep people in fireball formation. Smiting is good, but they burn out fairly quickly.

So paladins are king...
of small room fights that happen 1/day.

 

[RSIxidor]

As mentioned, range is the biggest weakness of a paladin. Aura's are their biggest strength, but also keep people in fireball formation. Smiting is good, but they burn out fairly quickly.

So paladins are king...
of small room fights that happen 1/day.

I have seen Warlock+Paladins. Kind of tool-boxy with short-rest Smites, Hex, and Eldritch Blast as well as all the normal Paladin stuff.

 

[SnakeEyes097]

I play a Protection style paladin in our campaign, and it's probably saved my party members a few times so far. We have three front line party members (paladin, barbarian, rogue, warlock, cleric) and tend to clump up, so I use it almost every turn though. We're only level 3, going to hit 4 next session, so I don't know yet how well they do at higher levels. I don't have a problem keeping Bless up either, because I include myself in it so I get an extra d4 on my Con saves to keep it. I'm playing normal boring human, not variant, and my Con is 18 because we rolled our stats, and I put my highest (17) there so that probably has a lot to do with it too, since it got bumped to 18 by the blanket +1 ability increase of human.

 

[mellored]

I have seen Warlock+Paladins. Kind of tool-boxy with short-rest Smites, Hex, and Eldritch Blast as well as all the normal Paladin stuff.

Warlock is a good way to fix the paladin's weaknesses.

Probably more optimal overall, though still not without trade-offs.

 

[Kithas]

Never played a paladin but I do plan to play a pal/sorc sometime in the future. (current characters son, dragon sorc/ancients Pal)
So no experience in the specific class but I will share this;
Remember your role in combat when you are picking your ability scores and equipment. If you are the frontline damage soak, your damage output is not all that important, and dueling helps bring that back up too! So no you won't out-damage the version of your pally that put his best stat into str and got it to 20 asap and is using that polearm. But your Aura of life concentrating sword and shield, 20 con paladin with a decent cha is going to keep you and your party alive sooo much longer.
Then again if your role is damage dealer, go for it, smash face. Try out Savage Attacker too! I know just by-the-averages it isnt that exciting. but it makes bad damage rolls for your smites almost not a thing.

tl/dr; Con can be more important than str based on your role in combat and I would say for paladins often IS more important.

 

[Blue]

3. ASI's are at such a premium for Paladins that playing anything other than a Variant Human will render you a shackled runner, since you will have almost zero room to round out your build with some of the best feats in the game.

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level half-elf. +1 to two stats, +2 chr, 1 feat.

Looks pretty even if you would want to boost Chr as a paladin. Oh, but half elves also get darkvision, fey ancestry and two extra skills.

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level dragonborn: +2 str, +1 chr, 1 feat

So Dragonborn start 1 ability boost behind, but also gets a breath weapon (hordes being somethign paladins aren't good with) and damage resistance.

4th level variant human: +1 to two stats, +2 to a stat, 1 feat
4th level human: +1 to six stats, 1 feat

Not saying "+6 is better than +2", but as you pointed out paladins are MAD. At least three of those are good (Str/Dex, Con and Chr) and Wis is not bad. Plus dex if you're a str paladin for init and reflex saves. All in all, different but not weaker.

This is just three, there's a lot of viable paladin races. They are MAD, but that does make races that get more than +2 total racial ability bumps quite interesting.

 

[Blue]

Been running a half-elf Oath of Ancients paladin with polearm mastery quite effectively. 7th level now. Best AC and HPs in the group, give out +3 to all magic saves and resistance to magic damage within 10'. I burn though spells quickly smiting - rather save us healing and kill things fast instead of save and perhaps never use. (Which is the opposite of most casters I play.) I've found the cure disease/poison parts of Lay on Hands to be a hidden gem if not a common need.

My strength is a bit lower because of the feat, only 16. With a bless up (either from the cleric or myself) I don't have a problem hitting, and I have 3 attacks a round plus possible reaction attack from polearm master.

We have a barbarian who out-damages me (without smite) and has resistance while raging, everyone else is more support or artillery. I've let the sorcerer know it's just fine to rain fireballs down on my position if it'll get a lot of foes because I get +Chr to the save and resistance to the damage - I'm not that scared. (Plus both me and the barb will be twin hasted, so an extra +2 to reflex on top of it.) These synergies with the party really help us all do well.

One thing that helps overcome a weakness with the paladin is that I have an uncommon magic item: Winged Boots. Give me the ability to close across difficult terrain or flying opponents.

 

[Leugren]

I play a Protection style paladin in our campaign, and it's probably saved my party members a few times so far. We have three front line party members (paladin, barbarian, rogue, warlock, cleric) and tend to clump up, so I use it almost every turn though. We're only level 3, going to hit 4 next session, so I don't know yet how well they do at higher levels. I don't have a problem keeping Bless up either, because I include myself in it so I get an extra d4 on my Con saves to keep it. I'm playing normal boring human, not variant, and my Con is 18 because we rolled our stats, and I put my highest (17) there so that probably has a lot to do with it too, since it got bumped to 18 by the blanket +1 ability increase of human.

Rolling stats can clearly help mitigate MAD if you manage to roll above average. You made an uncommon decision in choosing to place your highest roll into Constitution. How are your Strength and Charisma scores? Have lower scores in Strength and Charisma affected you in practice?