The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[Kahuna Burger]

Speak with dead is a pretty viable way to find out info.

no, it actually isn't, ime. Amoung other things : "Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive.
If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails."

While SwD can be useful when you had no chance to talk to a living being, it is no substitute to a good Zone of Truth/ Discern lies combo not to mention detect thoughts or command thrown in.

 

[Numion]

Um...actually, they do.

Must be some fancy new-fangled 3.5E thing .. not in my 3.0E they don't

 

[Kahuna Burger]

So, IMC, the paladin has the right, according to his class, to preform the action he did by killing a suspected murderer and the act itself would not cause any punishment.

YEEAAAARRRRRRGGGHH!!!!!!!

No one is dead (except probably the halfling.)

The halfling was not in the same room as the unspecified, non-deadly "attack" took place.

Where are you guys getting this stuff?

 

[Demmero]

Chivalric courtly love and the adoration of his lady is not an appropriate idiom for a paladin?

Ah...that brings back memories of Sir Lancelot in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," running the guests through, kicking the bride in the chest, slashing the boquet of flowers on the wall. I always looked on that character as a comically-overblown example of an overzealous knight/paladin gone off the deep end.

I'm sort of getting the feeling that some would argue that his actions were consistent with a paladin's Code of Conduct

 

[Numion]

YEEAAAARRRRRRGGGHH!!!!!!!

No one is dead (except probably the halfling.)

The halfling was not in the same room as the unspecified, non-deadly "attack" took place.

Where are you guys getting this stuff?

Um, common sense? The halfling was not merely looking the other way when evil things took place. He enabled evil. He was an accomplice. Can the Paladin only ever go after the trigger men and not those who are accomplices? Hell, by the way you put it anyone who ordered the hit should be left outside the scope of the Paladins smiting, since they "was not in the same room".

Now granted the victim was only assaulted and not necessarily murdered, but in those times a fitting punishment for assault would also be execution.

 

[Nyeshet]

I may as well enter the fray.

There is no need for Speak with Dead as a Cleric is nearby with Heal prepared and the Halfling was only in negative hit points and dying (not yet dead).

This entire situation is a massive can of worms. First off, there is no evidence that 'nothing' was done to the Paladin's wife. Rather, we know that something was done (although perhaps not yet fully accomplished) to her or her unborn babe - then the assaulters left upon their discovery. The cleric recieved only verbal support that she was apparently unharmed. He went downstairs and informed the Paladin that his wife had been assualted but seemed unharmed and the perpetrators had escaped. The Paladin reacted by attempted to slay the final perpetrator in the act.

It is true that the halfling may have been under compulsion, but his reactions suggest otherwise - either he is a willing accessory who hoped to escape prior to the paladin realizing the assault or he was blackmailed / intimidated into aiding an illegal and possibly evil act. Will the wife now miscarry due to some as yet undiscovered magic? Is the child now bound to the evil subtype due to some spell - perhaps even to be born with a fiendish heritage or merely deformed? The Paladin does not know this - but he is likely well aware that just because his wife is physically unharmed does not mean that she and her unborn babe are truly okay. Something terrible may have been done and not yet discovered. He has plenty of reason to believe it possible.

Granted, he should have simply made a subdual coup-de-grace against the halfing - knock him out for later interrogation in the royal dugeons while observed by a cleric under the effect of Detect Lies. He should lose his paladin powers for a few days, after which an atonement should be all that's necessary to regain his abilities. His actions - while intending to kill - were not successful. Furthermore, it could be that the halfling (which you have kept alive due to being a source of important information from the DM to the players) would have been worthy of slaying. I'm still scratching my head over why the Paladin did not use Detect Evil upon first laying eyes upon the messenger. Being awoken in the middle of the night during a time dangerous enough to require the paladin to ask a friend to protect his wife for the few minutes he expected to be gone should have rung more than a few suspition bells - causing him to use the ability on almost anyone he met at that time, even for only the briefest of meetings. In any case, he has not broken his code but has skirted the border of it. IMC I would remove his powers for 2d4 days for such an act - a reminder to be wary of sliding so close to the abyss.

Now, from a non-religious perspective, were the paladin not within the Royal City he would have been within his legal rights to slay the halfling as it was accessory to a significant crime upon his own property. However, due to the location he is technically outside his jurisdiction and should be fined - perhaps 100 gp - for attempted slaying of a freeman in the royal city. From the legal perspective, unless the halfling was a noble, that is the worse that should happen to the paladin. The halfling was, after all, an accessory to a major crime - an assault upon a noble's wife and unborn child - his heir. In the middle ages wars could have been started over something like this.

If the halfling population is large and important to the city - or the halfing was actually a noble of or visitor to the city - then fine may be increased to as much as 1,000 or even 10,000 gp - paid to the king, not to the halfling or his family. That was the way the medieval society worked. If fines were levied it was as a punishment to the fined, not as recompence to the victim. Recall also that 100 gp is equivalent to several years wages by untrained labor and about a year's wages for trained labor. Tenfold that is thus at least 10 years wages - an excessive amount, really. One hundred fold (ie: 10k gp) should only be used if a war is likely to start over the matter, as it is equivalent to a hundred years wages from a trained laborer or perhaps ten years wages from an extended family of trained laborers.

So, revoke his paladin powers for a week or so and then allow atonement. The Paladin is still lawful good, he just met a bump along the road. He need a reminder to be wary of the bumps and watch where he is going. Legally, perhaps he should be fined a few hundred gp - as much as 1000 gp if the situation embarresses the king or some other higher noble who would normally be in charge of such matters.

If you really want to mess with the Paladin, have him sent a dream suggesting dire things soon to occur to his wife - another attack perhaps - and a promise of power to overcome such dangers. Then, when the dire situation occurs (while his powers are still lost) have him seem to hear a voice whispering in his mind, offering him the power to "punish" those attacking his wife. It could make for a dramatic fall from grace to the path of the blackguard. This assumes, of course, that the player wishes to consider such a path. Talk it over with him first, when you send the dream.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

In this case, I would not do anything to the paladin for the action itself. This is a matter of DMing style. If I felt the action itself would cause a paladin to violate his code, I would have warned the player of such before hand. If the paladin loses his abilities, I want it to be because the character acted out of frustration, not the player.

Excellent point, painandgreed. I think that taking this approach would prevent 99% of the problems that result from paladins violating their codes.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Um, common sense? The halfling was not merely looking the other way when evil things took place. He enabled evil. He was an accomplice. Can the Paladin only ever go after the trigger men and not those who are accomplices? Hell, by the way you put it anyone who ordered the hit should be left outside the scope of the Paladins smiting, since they "was not in the same room".

Now granted the victim was only assaulted and not necessarily murdered, but in those times a fitting punishment for assault would also be execution.

actually, the "victim" is, as far as we know, physically unharmed. Its pretty obvious that the facts of this situation aren't getting in anyone's way, here.

 

[Truth Seeker]

I believe on the DM's extended explanation...the near to killing part was held in limbo.

Please look here for the more define detail. Second, the subject title is misleading.

Third, as I said in further posts...to me, the scene got away from the DM and the player involved.

And lastily, as it was said on several occasions here, that the 'paladin' should be held to higher standard than anyone else.

May I ask this question then, if this was a Mage, fighter, rogue, or Barbarian. or ranger, that this indicent happened to...what standard should be held on them as well?

Let us be equal across the board.

And for you Demmero, I never said I was right either. It is a view expressed, and I leave it there as such.

Finally, channeling a Paladin, can be easy for some, and difficult for others. I have been told, by a friend, that is a series of books, that give a illustration on what a paladin can be.

The name of the author might be David Eddings *hope that last name is right*, maybe this will help, but then again, that depends on who wants to educate themselves further.

Me, I draw from life, got 33 years to look back on.

Everything that is written about a paladin, is a attempt by a author's view, the paladin is based on the tales of actual knights from the medival days. Change them around, by adding the power of the divine, and click-click, there you go.

This has been the most trouble profession to be discussed around the table, up the stairs, in a car, on the cell phone and where ever else, a voice or typed text can be seen and be heard.

There is NO major example ICon of what a paladin is suppose to be, and TSR and WOtc has not provided one, and that needs no explanation.

I just love it, when everyone, just harps on the profession, well for those that did...and forget the person behind the cover.

Please let it be concentrated on what happened in that house, and only that house, bringing up the laws of the city *they weren't respected by the individuals that planned the break in and assualt* at the moment, don't apply there, cause, there is a unspoken law that was broken, the ability to defend one's own property and those who live in it.

This not a black & white issue, the scene opened the box, and usher forth the unexpected.

What is happening here, and I see all the time, the paladin has been put on a pedstal, and is dared at, not to fall off, I see that everytime. If that was true, then no anti-paladin, to blackguard, back to anti-paladin...should not exist.

And honestly, the fault lies with us, each of us, has our own interpertation on what a paladin should be, the DM and player's views are far apart, there is no true standard or pedstal watching to look at *don't quote the PHB, this goes beyond that*

That is our failing, and no matter is said or done, a paladin to us, is what each of us see it to be. Yeah, the guidelines are suppose to give directions, but they are 2D stationary fixed instructions, when it comes to roleplaying, that is a fully 3 active environment. There no rules that can control fully, a problem like this.

That is left to us, and to this day...it still messes with our heads.

It is a...Never Ending Battle.

-When I thought I could leave, they had to drag me back in-

Interesting, but your example isn't that similar to the OP's situation.
It sounds like the OP's scenario took place in a major city with its own set of laws; whether "Your home is your castle" is one of those laws is debateable.
Also, the halfling was invited inside; he didn't come through a window.
Lastly, the halfling wasn't killed breaking and entering; he was found to be in league with home invaders, rendered helpless, and subsequently executed.

Oh, and Texas Justice and a paladin's Code of Conduct probably aren't all that compatible on a lot of issues

 

[Galfridus]

I'm not the biggest fan of alignments, but this game was set up to be as close to "by the book D&D" as possible (I was new to the area, did not know any gamers, and wanted the campaign to be "common ground"). That said, the game has been running 5 years, so some shades of grey are inevitable.

Does this player have a history of 'shaky' behavior or 'unpaldinishness'?

The player is an excellent roleplayer and a good sport; however, the paladin has definitely exhibited borderline chaotic (not evil) behavior in the past. This will figure into What Happens Next.

Is this a shades of grey campaign, or is it angled more towards killing the evil denziens of the dungeon?

It's a campaign where Good and Evil have more or less objective definitions (e.g., slavery = evil), but the campaign has gone on long enough that some greyness has seeped in. Evil people do not see themselves as good, although they may justify their actions using other criteria.

Is your player thick skinned and able to deal with losing his powers fairly well? Would he take it badly?

He would probably take it well, but this character has also had a lot to deal with (much not his fault). I will be talking to the player to get a better idea of where he stands on this. Enjoyment of the game is paramount, and while I must remain true to the world, I don't want to ruin the game for anyone.

Have you talked to your player about it? Does he feel that he deserves to lose his powers?

I haven't yet but I will -- this only happened two days ago and I wanted to give him a bit of time.

My concern is that the player's initial comments were to the effect that he knew he was going outside the bounds of the paladin's code, but he had made the decision to do that when his family was involved. However, this was in the heat of the moment, so I am not sure if that was really his thought process.

With regards to your situation, I have to ask: Did you have any plans of sacrificing his wife, turning his unborn child into an unholy monster, and generally forcing the paladin between choosing between his family and the safety of the world?

No. This was not a "follow the paladin's code or the world suffers" scene. He may well have to make that choice at some point, but not this time.

I just have to ask, because I've read a lot of paladin threads. On a more serious note, do you trust this player? How does he feel about the situation?

I trust the player. I don't know how he currently feels about the situation, as I haven't talked to him since the night of the session. I will be speaking with him this evening.

And, after reading this, I have just one thing to say. If I do get a chance to play the paladin character I have in mind, he's going to be a loner orphan with no friends. Because, really, it seems like having friends or family as a paladin is just asking to be slapped with power-drain.

There is an element of that in paladins. I think that paladins are a fairly masochistic class choice, but that can make them uniquely interesting to play.

It's impossible for a paladin to figure out the motivations of all evildoers -- and even a paladin has to balance upholding the law vs. doing what is good. However, in this particular instance, the need to follow the law was perhaps stronger than normal (i.e., they were in the middle of a "good" city rather than fighting for their lives in a dungeon). It seems to me that the chaotic element is stronger than the evil element of the act. Interestingly, I had forgotten that the book paladin code is not so strict about chaotic acts, which gives me something to think about.

By the way, I would still like to hear an answer to Wulf's original question. "What did you expect to happen?"

I took Wulf's question as rhetorical -- I rarely expect a particular outcome from any roleplaying scene. In a more narrow sense: at the time, during the scene, I did not expect the paladin to attempt to kill the halfling. If I had been guessing, I would have expected him to beat him up, express anger, and question him. I don't consider what the paladin did to be out of character, though it may have serious consequences for the character. I was a bit surprised at his actions, to be sure, and thought that posting the situation would provide new perspectives and inspirations for what to do -- which it definitely has!