The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[WhimsyTheFae]

...angry at torture...

Roughing up a halfling to get a confession is a form of torture (low grade and not too barbaric, but torture). So, it would seem that our paladin is angry at himself...

 

[jdrakeh]

So, anyhow...I don't see a problem with the paladin being angry.

'Righteous anger' in the Bible is that implcitly carried out according to the written or spoken wishes of God. The 'sin' aspect comes in when one acts upon anger that is based purely upon emotion, rather than the written or spoken commandment of God. The latter instance describes the Paladin.

Sure, the Paladin could assume that his god wanted him to murder the halfling, but his god didn't tell him to do that implicitly, either by way of written or oral instruction - the Paladin did it solely because he was torqued off. That is, the Paladin acted according to his own will, rather than the will of his God, the laws of the city, or his alignment.

Recall the scene in Star Wars: Episode III when Anakin murders Count Dooku - this same argument is framed there. Surely, Count Dooku deserves to die, but Jedi law (i.e., the Paladin's code) demands that he be arrested and tried as a criminal - Anakin gives into his own Wrath, however, and slays Dooku because he wants to.

Which is what this comes down to - the Paladin in this example murdered the Halfling, not because it was required, not because his god demanded it, not because law demanded it, but because he wanted to. Many people on the thread have tried to justify his actions after the fact, but in the end, the truth is that the Paladin did what he did only because he wanted to.

This is where the evil in Wrath lies, for it is an example of being consumed by self-will. And self-will is the anti-thesis of what it means to be a Paladin. A Paladin is sworn to help others, not themselves. This doesn't mean that they can't do good for themselves, mind you, merely that they have sworn a vow which places others first. When they ignore their duties to god, law, and their fellow man to indulge thier own desires...

These Paladins are on the path to becoming evil.

 

[BroccoliRage]

well...


if he killed the hobbit (or halfling if you prefer) in cold blood he is a murderer. if he was protecting his wife he is not. being a murderer is unacceptable in a lawful good alignment. if he violated alignment he is a level one fighter now until he atones...(at least according to 1e)...

good gaming.

 

[Torm]

Ya'll are focused too much on whether what he did was Good or Evil. (It wasn't Evil, btw. Evil requires intent, and unless there's something we haven't been told, the Paladin in question acted from an impulsive sense of righteousness, not Evil.)

A much simpler question to settle is, was it Lawful or Chaotic? The answer is that it was more Chaotic than Lawful - the primary difference between the two being that a Lawful character should be mindful of his chosen code of behavior before acting.

BUT - it has always been acknowledged by most DMs, players, and gods with Paladins in their portfolios that the Law/Chaos axis of Paladin behavior is less important than the Good/Evil axis. Which is why I recommended in my previous post that the Paladin be subject to an in-game consequence of his hasty action, rather than a game mechanic consequence (power stripping).

 

[tonym]

Roughing up a halfling to get a confession is a form of torture (low grade and not too barbaric, but torture). So, it would seem that our paladin is angry at himself...

Ack! You are right. The paladin should not have roughed-up the halfling.

Like I said earlier, I believe killing the wicked halfling was the paladin's prorogative. But a paladin should never inflict pain and terror to coerce cooperation. Even mild torture is not an option.

Consequently, I slightly withdraw some of my support for the paladin. Just a little, mind you. Say...8%.

Because of the torture, I'd probably handle the situation this way:

Heironeous would not punish the paladin, for the roughing-up was not especially cruel. However, the High Priestess (or Priest) to whom the paladin is answerable would mete out some form of disciplinary action, something that does not involve atonement (as only Heironeous can command atonement). The punishment would likely be community service and having to listen to a 12-hour lecture about how torture is wrong.

Tony M

 

[ThirdWizard]

Ya'll are focused too much on whether what he did was Good or Evil. (It wasn't Evil, btw. Evil requires intent, and unless there's something we haven't been told, the Paladin in question acted from an impulsive sense of righteousness, not Evil.)

"But I was thinking good thoughts when I burned down the orphanage! Honest!"

 

[Hypersmurf]

You mean because the paladin was angry when he did what he did, his actions are evil?

Anger is evil? Anger? The emotion...anger?

Yup. Although it's Fear that starts the chain off.

Fear is the path to the dark side.

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering.

This paladin? Much anger in him, like his father.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yup. Although it's Fear that starts the chain off.

But ... but ... paladins are immune to fear effects.

Therefore, they can't get angry.

 

[Torm]

"But I was thinking good thoughts when I burned down the orphanage! Honest!"

Bad example - in that case, you know the person is lying, which invalidates your point.

 

[tonym]

'Righteous anger' in the Bible is that implcitly carried out according to the written or spoken wishes of God. The 'sin' aspect comes in when one acts upon anger that is based purely upon emotion, rather than the written or spoken commandment of God. The latter instance describes the Paladin...

Okay, now I think I get you. This must be the core point of disagreement, where we diverge.

I think paladins are instruments of their god's wrath and have been completely pre-approved to kill anything that is probably evil.

You, on the other hand, have a more complicated view of the relationship between the paladin and his god. Your view takes the emotional state of the paladin in mind when he is confronting evil, and your view sometimes places more importance on honor and justice than killing evil. And the paladin's pre-approval for killing evil has more restrictions and qualifiers.

Does that sound close to the mark?

Tony M