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The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

Aaron L

Hero
Let me just add that I think the paladin attempting to kill the halfling was a foolish action, and not a Good act, but neither was it Evil (if killing Evil creatures is bad... then what is the reason for paladins in the first place? Im speaking completely from an in game standpoint, now!) but by itself is not reason for loss of paladinhood by itself. Now, as a trend, it would show a lack of self control if he always spoke with his sword and was lead by his anger, and after severa such actions I'd have to do somehting, but this one time he was acting within his god given role of smiter of evil, and the fact that it ws his wife that was the victim of the evil, well... that just makes him that much more enthusiastic.

Taken as an individual action? Foolish to attempt to kill him instead of further questioning, rash and hotheaded, but its not going to cost him his wings. If this happens all the time, however, then something needs to be done.


Paladins arent police, they arent lawyers, they arent Superman. They are Charlemagne, Galahad, and Roland; knights that kill monsters and slay evil men.
 

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painandgreed

First Post
What would I do to the Paladin? Probably nothing. Paladins are a derivitive of fighter and they kill. That's their job. Was the halfling killed unjustly? Doesn't sound like it. If such a deliberate action warrented loss of Paladinhood, I would typically warn the player at the time seeing that a lifetime of training as a Paladin would give him that moment of choice even if the player doesn't see it. If the character acted with justified reasoning but it turned out to be bad, such that the halfling was actually trying to help the people in question but never was able to say such, then the paladin might be forced to atone (perhaps immediatly, perhaps upon find out, depending on the magnitude of the mistake).

In this case, it seems like the paladin did what paladins do, found those that deserved to be killed and killed them. If as a DM I felt that they were doing so for the wrong reason and it was a big enough mistake, I would have warned him so and let him make the choice. Even then, I don't see such an act as great enough to warrent punishement unless part of a trend.
 

diaglo

Adventurer
billd91 said:
Not everything a paladin does must qualify as lawful good as long as its neither evil nor a gross violation of his code. Killing the accomplice of someone who assaulted his own wife fits neither of those two criteria.
And unless the society is highly legalistic with significant recognition of the rights of the perp, it might even be legal.
killing some paid stooge. who is probably a 1st lvl Commoner being paid big bucks to him.. the hemming and hawing and running being a dead giveaway is not a good act.

taking out his frustration and vengence on the 1st lvl Commoner.. again is not a good thing.


he should've knocked the guy out and picked him up later to turn over to the authorities.
 

Arravis

First Post
Dear lord... Diaglo and I agreeing on something, that's rare. I always thought you were on the "harsher" side of the paladin arguements. Hmm...
 

wuyanei

First Post
Hjorimir said:
Let the paladin's god decide.

However, this is almost exactly how an NPC fell into Blackguard in my campaign. The attack on his wife and child was arranged by a Pit Fiend too. The paladin could have subdued the halfling (learned of any other plots and who ordered the attack) and then handed the halfling over to the courts to await hanging or a nice fifty-year stay in the local salt mines.

Now, if the country was a Theocracy and the paladin was awarded judge, jury, and executioner powers AND his god was okay with the action it would be excuseable.

My take exactly. Utimately, paladins only answer to 1) their god and 2) their conscience. Temporal laws are only a guide, for laws made and enforced by man will always be imperfect. Trusting blindly in the rules of Man is actually an abdiction of ones own responsibility to judge Good from Evil. That, IMO, is an even swifter path moral weakness and ultimately perdition.

Depending on the paladin's god, there could be many different results to the paladin's actions, ranging from lost of paladin status to actually being rewarded. A paladin of abstract Law and Good might need to atone for his actions, expecially if the halfling was basically helpless. A paladin of St. Cuthbert or similar deity would simply kill the halfling and move on. In addition, the paladin must weight the possibility that if he does not neturalize the halfling very, very quickly, he might fail at his duty to protect his wife and child (fail to protect the innocent). That would also cause him to need to atone -- even moreso than for smiting the halfling -- especially if he is a paladin of a 'protection' god such as Pelor. For the paladin in this case, there is NO right choice -- only a choice that the DM approves of (or not).

Now, all theory aside, I suggest that the OP consider very carefully what he wants to do with the situation. As this entire situation was mostly directed by the DM, the DM, not the player, is mostly responsible for the results.

If, as part of the plot, you WANT to engineer the fall-from-grace of the paladin, then you can use the paladin's actions as an excuse to do so. In the computer game Baldure's Gate II there was a similar sub-quest, where the main character manipulated into killing several fellow paladins. The main character would then lose his paladin status until he could atone for his actions by fulfilling a quest. In this case, you could claim that the paladin acted unlawfully and have the paladin lose all or some of his powers, but allow atonement after a quest to deliver the villians to justice. OR, you could cause the paladin to fall with no easy atonement in sight, and stoke the paladin's rage and bitterness at such blatant injustice so as to tempt him towards the path of true Evil (blackguard). You could let the paladin retain his abilities, yet have the town guard launch an enquiry against him. You could go not only allow the paladin to retain his abilities, but actually have his god bless his rightous quest of holy vengeance -- let him act as if under the effects of bless and aid when he hunts for the assaliants of his wife and unborn child. You could have your ruling be a mixture of all above -- for example, the paladin loses his abilities, and must stand before a court to be judged. However, he is acquitted (or otherwise released somehow) and his god shows compassion on him, so while he must atone to regain paladinhood, he acts as is under bless and aid while on the quest.

As DM, you must handle this situation *very* carefully, for your player might resent you if you basically forcing his paladin to fall. Discuss it OOC with your player -- will he accept such a plot with good grace? If so -- if he revels in playing such a wounded, tragic hero -- then by all means go for it. However, if the player does not enjoy such a plot, I suggest that you not force such a plotline on him. A good, tragic plotline in the eyes of the DM -- all filled with deep, philosophical themes of lost and redemption -- might not actually be a *fun* plotline for the player to play.

As for me personally, I would consider it an injustice if the paladin were to lose his paladin-hood. I could accept and even enjoy such a plot if forwarned, but would not likely be happy if a DM sprang it upon me unannounced. I believe that a paladin's first duty is to destroy evil and protect the innocent, not merely to strive for a nebulous state personal moral perfection. A paladin that lets an innocent come to harm because his is paralyzed by moral uncertainity is already a fallen paladin, IMNSHO.

Unless you have talked it over with the player OOC, I strongly advise against causing the paladin to fall. IC consequences, such as trouble with the local law enforcement, are acceptable as long as the paladin has a reasonable chance to defend himself. However, the consequences should not overshadow the more important plotline, which is to deliver swift and merciless justice to the knaves that dare assault a pregnant woman. On that, I would say, there is no moral dilemma.
 

diaglo

Adventurer
Arravis said:
Dear lord... Diaglo and I agreeing on something, that's rare. I always thought you were on the "harsher" side of the paladin arguements. Hmm...
i am.


check out the 2nd post to this thread.

i said make the guy a blackguard. ;)
 

harmyn

First Post
From what limited info was given here I would strip the Paladin of his powers. He could atone for his actions but it would require a true act of contrition to get them back. Why? Because he killed a man who was an accomplice in an assault on his wife and child. Did the family die? Sounds like they did. Did the halfling know that was the plan? Did he even fully understand what his role was supposed to be in this little bit of theatrics? Paladin didn't know and didn't try to find out. That's not a good thing.

Was the hafling fighting back? Was it a simple halfling commoner? Did the paladin even attempt to Detect Evil since he can do it at will and it has been made clear the paladin was detaining the halfling.

What facts we do have is that the halfling showed up to distract the paladin. The paladin detained the halfling when he deduced something was up. Upon discovering his family had been murdered he slew the halfling. That is a fit of anger. To simply detain someone as a prisoner or hostage, then to turn and kill them, that's wrong. That is also murder. Anger and dispair may have fueled it, but revenge doesn't equal right.

From a metagame point of view it could have been useful to keep the unscrupulous little fellow around at least long enough to find out who he was in cahoots with. Might be useful to learn whose blade was actually responsible and why it was done. There must have been more to it than simply the desire to off a paladin's family.
 

Arravis

First Post
Wuyanei and I may disagree on some of the finer issues of paladinhood, but he is dead on about the player/DM relationship. I'd follow his advice and carefully speak to the player.
 

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