The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[Jim Hague]

Sure - and maybe the reaction's understandable. But you, nor I, no anyone on this thread as far as we know, is the direct represenative of a divine power. And a paladin, as such - especially a paladin of the god in question - must needs take that role very seriously, no matter what the situation. That's the price you pay for heeding the gods' call.

I'm really hoping this turns into a roleplaying opportunity for the DM and the paladin's player - the meat of this is far, far too good to leave untouched, or to deal with by a simple stripping of powers...as evidenced by 11 pages so far of mostly civil debate.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

I'm really hoping this turns into a roleplaying opportunity for the DM and the paladin's player - the meat of this is far, far too good to leave untouched, or to deal with by a simple stripping of powers...as evidenced by 11 pages so far of mostly civil debate.

Yep, this is a brilliant chance for the campaign to really go into some neat areas.

 

[Jim Hague]

Yep, this is a brilliant chance for the campaign to really go into some neat areas.

Oh hell yes. I had something similar happen in one of my campaigns, which brings up an important point - handle carefully. There's players that won't want to go along with the idea, unfortunately. In this case, the mechanical stripping may be the only recourse.

 

[Demmero]

Now, I don't know about how I would react in a similar situation, but I suspect that I would hear the first part very loudly and the last part very softly or not at all.

Excellent point, and probably right on the money for what the paladin in this case did. Selective hearing. Selective reasoning. Perhaps selective picking of his god's tenets to justify his actions. To quote the PHB, "Heironeous promotes justice, valor, chivalry, and honor."

He could cry "Chivalry!" to try to explain away his actions, but it'd be a warped sort of chivalry where you don't actually help the damsel in distress while she's being assaulted but instead worry more about catching and dealing with her attackers.

Likewise, he could cry "Justice!" and say that's what he dealt to the halfling accomplice. You'd get some arguments (11 pages so far) as to whether such an execution counts as "justice," however.

What about the valor of Heironeous? Is that what we see when the paladin farts around with a flunky out in the street while the big crime's happening up in his bedroom where his wife is being assaulted?

Do we see the honor of Heironeous in the way the captive halfling is executed?

I'm not saying that a paladin of Heironeous should always stop and make sure he's honoring all four of these tenets before doing an action, or that all four of these things need to be present in every single action he does. But he should have a decent working knowledge of how to mesh all or most of these tenets into a code he can live and be a paladin by.

When he clearly ignores one of his god's tenets to twist around another tenet to justify an action...well, he's not doing Heironeous' will, he's doing his own.

 

[Demmero]

Oh hell yes. I had something similar happen in one of my campaigns, which brings up an important point - handle carefully. There's players that won't want to go along with the idea, unfortunately. In this case, the mechanical stripping may be the only recourse.

Excellent point. And I'm not just talking about the player of the paladin. What about the player of the cleric and his PC? I've been wondering what faith he belongs to and how he'd react to the paladin's brand of justice.

Lots of potential stuff brewing here.

 

[Galfridus]

What about the player of the cleric and his PC? I've been wondering what faith he belongs to and how he'd react to the paladin's brand of justice.

The cleric is a rough and tumble priest of Kord; not sure what his reaction will be but I'm thinking utter condemnation is not high on the list.

In my campaign, a paladin's Detect Evil requires a standard action to activate and concentration to maintain; just like the spell. It is established in my game that just because someone is evil doesn't mean they are automatically deserving of death, but in this particular case, it would certainly have added to the case against the halfling (were he to detect as evil, that is -- at present his alignment is unknown to the PCs and unstated here).

Upon further conversation, the player felt that the PC's actions were in character, though not necessarily appropriate for a paladin. He felt the act was moderately evil and chaotic, and said that his motive was anger and not so much vengeance. He did not think he should lose his powers over it.

 

[Jim Hague]

The cleric is a rough and tumble priest of Kord; not sure what his reaction will be but I'm thinking utter condemnation is not high on the list.

In my campaign, a paladin's Detect Evil requires a standard action to activate and concentration to maintain; just like the spell. It is established in my game that just because someone is evil doesn't mean they are automatically deserving of death, but in this particular case, it would certainly have added to the case against the halfling (were he to detect as evil, that is -- at present his alignment is unknown to the PCs and unstated here).

Upon further conversation, the player felt that the PC's actions were in character, though not necessarily appropriate for a paladin. He felt the act was moderately evil and chaotic, and said that his motive was anger and not so much vengeance. He did not think he should lose his powers over it.

Time for that test of faith, then. Replace his wife with a succubus or eryine for awhile, or get her involved with a local activity that turns out to be an evil cult. Switch his kid out with some sort of hellspawn. Then don't let his detect evil work - after all, if he's self-righteous enough to kill without following the precepts of his church, then let his god test that arrogance. Let him work without the tool he so 'nobly' spurned to enact murder out of anger.

 

[Conaill]

when the cleric comes to tell the Paladin his wife's ok, it seems like this is the first time the Paladin knows his wife's been assaulted. So picture if you will, the paladin is dowstairs, it's late at night, he's been disturbed from his rest by this halfling who now won't tell him why, he already has some reason to be concerned for his wife (why else ask a friend to guard her?), and things with the halfling have already started to get physical (This confuses me a bit too, but they have). All of the sudden his cleric friend comes bolting down the stairs and says "Your wife's been assaulted, but she's ok."

Now, I don't know about how I would react in a similar situation, but I suspect that I would hear the first part very loudly and the last part very softly or not at all.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. I suspect there was some degree of metagaming going on with the paladin player. I don't think the paladin would have "roughed up" the prisoner if the player hadn't known something was going on upstairs. And if the paladin *did* know something was going on upstairs earlier, I think he would have rushed to his wife's aid asap.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Time for that test of faith, then. Replace his wife with a succubus or eryine for awhile, or get her involved with a local activity that turns out to be an evil cult. Switch his kid out with some sort of hellspawn. Then don't let his detect evil work - after all, if he's self-righteous enough to kill without following the precepts of his church, then let his god test that arrogance. Let him work without the tool he so 'nobly' spurned to enact murder out of anger.

I think this'd be a pretty good compromise -- he retains most of his powers but loses one tool. As to what you do with it, that depends on how adversarial you'd like to be. Screwing with his family right away might be a little hardcore, but it's one option.

 

[Jim Hague]

I think this'd be a pretty good compromise -- he retains most of his powers but loses one tool. As to what you do with it, that depends on how adversarial you'd like to be. Screwing with his family right away might be a little hardcore, but it's one option.

It was phonetic coincidence that inspired that idea, given the situation - "Evil that takes root in the heart shall spread to the hearth."