The perspectives of new gamers (long)

[Gothmog]

Thanks for all the good advice so far folks. I am a big believer in "adjusting" monster stats so players don't really know what to expect, and while beasties like this can surprise them occasionally, often they figure out pretty quickly what the creature's AC is by their attack rolls. One player even goes to far as to tally total damage done to the critter so they can have an idea how many hp the darn thing has!


Anyway, over the last few days I have been thinking about the situation, and have come up with a few ideas.

1. Don't let the players know their exact hp totals, AC, skill modifiers, etc. Instead, describe in detail actions and their results.

2. If someone asks how badly injured they are, give them a ballpark estimate- "you feel battered and bruised, about 1/2 gone" or "you are on your last legs, and the next blow will probably finish you". Same thing goes for when they look to see how injured an NPC or monster is.

3. When describing magic items, give a verbal rather than quantitative description. Instead of saying a +1 keen longsword, describe it as a "blade that often bites deeply with a keen edge, and radiates moderately strong magic." Let them roll damage for their attacks, but figure in the damage modifiers secretly.

4. For skill ranks, don't tell someone they have a +12 in Hide, tell them they are an Expert at Hide. Maybe something like rank 1-5 (Novice), 6-10 (Competent), 11-15 (Expert) and 16-20 (Master) of given skills. This way they can roughly guage their chances of success without number-crunching too much. After all, there are not probably many of us in real life who think "Assuming this is a moderate difficult task, I would guess I have a 70% chance to sneak up on Bob and scare the snot out of him." Instead, we probably think "I'm pretty lightfooted, so I bet I can scare Bob" or "I'm such a klutz, I'll be lucky to get behind Bob without knocking the lamp over"

I have used #1, 2, and 3 in a previous campaign (2E) with some new players a few years ago who didn't want to mess with trying to calculate all the numbers and modifiers and keep them straignt. Although the game only lasted about 10 adventures before scheduling difficulties got in the way, those players seemed to react to situations in a much more realistic fashion rather than having pages of stats in front of them. It was a lot of fun- and it makes me think that maybe the thing that leads to outlandish player tactics and the "kill anything that moves" attitude is overfamiliarity with the rules and a preoccupation with the probabilities. I know these are some pretty radical ideas, and when I did use #1, 2, and 3 a few years ago, it was moderately more work for the DM, but even though they were newbies, it was some of the most in-depth roleplaying I have ever done.

Any thoughts? Or have these ideas branded me a heretic?

 

[Lela]

I think that it would be an incredable amount of work to do what you describe. You'd have to keep all the player's character sheets and advance them, while doing ALL the usual DM stuff. You have to listen to the players when they say they want to work on hiding or spellcraft for next level and when they are attempting to expand their intelect or increase physical streangth at 4th.

All in all, it's pritty radical. Good luck with it. I know my players would never go for that. I don't think any of us would enjoy it as much.

 

[Henry]

Gothmog:

Want to see D&D through new eyes? A new player ALWAYS does it. But then, you now know that.

To keep track of all PC's stats however, is very time consuming and too dofficult for the average DM, especially if the DM is keeping the monsters' stats as well as the players. It is a great idea though, if you can manage it, because the element of uncertainty is VERY high, and combats would run very differently.

Alcamtar:

I'm sorry to hear your group lost steam with 3E - I hope your homebrew rules are working well. I have found that the way to keep things fresh for my players is very much along the way that Kamikaze Midget and Sigil describe. I play an unknown factor with my monsters, my NPC's, and even my magic items. Some standard magic items are fun, but past that +1 sword, if you want a PC to keep an item, then you need to change what the items do. I had a PC to keep a +2 sword that drank blood, despite the opportunity to claim a +3 weapon at 9th level. It was so much more cool to him, than a simple +3 sword. I had one PC keep a magic dagger that changed into a tattoo, DESPITE the fact that doing so caused him damage! He simply found a concealable weapon like that indispensible.

 

[Lela]

I once gave one of my players a shirt that never got dirty. Not blood, gore, or bleach could ruin it. It also changed color to match his pants. It was useless, no actual bonuses at all. But he loved it.

 

[mmadsen]

I guess what I am trying to say is that her perspective of not thinking in game terms (in this case because she doesn't know much about the monster stats) allowed her character to show a fairly realistic, but all too rare response to some nameless horror adventurers are likely to encounter. Do you think this is due to relative inexperience with the rules, a less jaded perspective of gaming, some other reason, or some combination of these things?

Theoretically, game mechanics that matched reality (with the addition of Zombies, etc.) might acheive the same results. After all, she fled because she thought the Zombies would eat her alive. If D&D Zombies were that tough, a cynical meta-gamer might do the same thing!

 

[Templetroll]

When my daughter's characters first meet up with gross or scary looking creatures they typically consider "runaway!" as a very viable option.

If she is with the party she will either hide nearby or sneak back to see how we are doing. If we are in trouble she will help someone her character likes; so far this 'just happens to be' a character being played by Dad.

Recently, the son of another player joined our group and this has enhanced what we've gained. New perspectives on all aspects of the game, our roleplay and the DM's descriptions are improved by trying to make the game as special for them as it was for us way back when.

Also, while playing Baldur's Gate, my daughter wanted to show me how to play CE properly. (I was min/maxing in my game ) She showed me her game where she played Chaotic Evil and chose the rudest possible response to any encounters. It wasn't a long game but it was fun for her.

 

[Gothmog]

Hello again,

The last time I posted, I put forth the idea of the DM keeping track of all of the PC's stats (hp, AC, skills, etc) in the hopes of allowing the players to not worry about the stats as much, and to instead to focus on roleplaying and encourage a greater degree of the unknown during play. This last weekend, we had one of our gaming marathons (20+ hours over 2 days), and we tried the no-stat PC method.

At first, the players were pretty reluctant to try this, especially the guy who likes to tally the monster's hp as they score damage. Most of my players are long-time gamers (2 guys who have gamed with me since high school, my sis, the wife of one of my friends, and a guy who started gaming about 5 years ago), and were understandable reluctant to try this. The only new player was my grilfriend, and she didn't care if we tried it this way. They said they wouldn't have any idea what their PCs capabilities would be, and that there would be too much abstraction in the game. After some prodding though, they agreed to try it for a few hours and see what they thought.

I made up an Excel spreadsheet with all of the PC's combat stats on one page, and all of their skills on another page for easy reference (I do the same thing with monsters and NPCs I plan on using during an adventure too). I gave them sheets with their skills listed on them, as well as a rough guage of how good they were at each skill (novice, competent, expert, master). Spellcasters still kept track of their spell slots and spells memorized, but otherwise the players did not have access to their game stats (AC, hp, saves, etc).

At first they had a little trouble getting into it. They seemed a little unsure when using skills, but I made sure to give them detailed descriptions of the outcomes of their actions, and they settled into it pretty quickly. About 2 hours into gaming, I threw a random encounter at them that was not very dangerous (the party is composed of 6 level 5 PCs and one level 3 NPC) consisting of one ogre, 8 orcs, and one level 3 orc fighter. Not a tough encounter, but sometimes I tack class levels on my creatures, so they aren't entirely sure of the monster's capabilities. As the combat unfolded, we noticed that while their previous behavior in combat was somewhat reckless (some might call it uncoordinated), without the stats readily available, they were more cautious, and seemed more worried about being flanked, ganged up on, etc. Also, instead of pointing an an orc and saying "I attack him", they started escribing how they were maneuvering, and how they were attacking! The hardest thing for them to get used to was not knowing how many hp they had left, but we pretty quickly established a system to give them a ballpark figure of how badly injured they were (less than 10% gone= slight, 11-25% light, 26-50% moderately, 51-75% seriously, 76-90% critically, 91-100% mortally wounded). The won the combat pretty easily, but they all liked the added uncertainty in combat, and said that this style helped them to become less focused on the numbers, and focus on the game and story instead. We finished the weekend with the no-stat method, including 4 more fights, numerous skill checks, saves, etc, and it never became a problem for them. It was also only a little extra work for me to keep track of since I made the spreadsheet beforehand, and as long as it is updated before every session, it shouldn't be a problem.

After the session ended, I asked them how they liked it compared to the normal method, and they unanimously said they liked the no-stat way MUCH better. One guy (the hp tracker) said that he was able to sit back and imagine what was occurring better now that he didn't have to keep track of the numbers. They were also much more interested ingaming now (they had been prone to goofing off a lot when we played, and interest sometimes flagged). I don't think I can say it was simply due to the change to going stat-less, since I was also really excited to try this and by their good reaction to this, which got my interest and enthusiam back up. I know this might not be the solution for all groups, but if you are looking for something to spice up your game or generate interest again, this sure works. I also think it is important for the players to trust the DM and know he won't screw with them or fudge things against them, so this might not work well in groups where people don't know each other very well. Anyway, we are going to continue playing this way when we get together next month and for the forseeable future.

I'd welcome any comments or further suggestions any of you have. Sorry for another long post!

 

[Lela]

Did they know what feats they had? What about how you advanced their characters, how did that work?

 

[Hammerhead]

I don't really see what difference hiding relatively static stats from the players makes. My character wears full plate and a big shield. +10 armor bonus to AC. He may be described as somewhat clumsy (8 dex) or somewhat faster than the average man (12 dex). Assuming the later, he has a 21 AC. If he casts spells, it would be simple to determine other stats by testing the range of spells, and the number per day, and the most powerful spells.

 

[Gothmog]

Lela- sorry, I guess I forgot to add this: they did know what feats they had, as well as general skill levels as I outlined earlier. They don't know the exact plusses on items such as armor, weapons, etc- they simply rolled and told me the raw number- I added in the plusses for the roll (from Str, magic, etc) and told them whether they were successful or not. Likewise, when they rolled damage, they rolled the damage die, and told me the result- I then added any relevant bonuses. It took a minute for me to get used to, but by the end of the second encounter, I had pretty much memorized all of their combat stats, so it isn't as bad as it sounds.

We talked about how to advance characters, and what we decided on was for both the player and me to roll a hit die for the character when they advance (my roll is kept secret). The player then decides if he wants to keep his roll or take mine, knowing only the result of his roll. To advance skills, the player tells me how many skill points he wants to put toward that skill at a given level, up to the max allowed ranks by the rules. Likewise, when a new feat is earned, they select it as normal. They know what level they are, but not exactly how many experience points they have.

As for the items they find- they might know a +1 keen longsword is a "moderately enchanted weapon with a blade that cuts deeply fairly often." A potion of healing would be "a minty smelling potion that gives off vapors that invigorate, and that numbs your body for a short time as wounds close" for example.

Oh- and before I forget to mention this- we used a modified spellcasting system that requires a casting roll, but lets all arcane and divine casters cast spells spontaneously from a resivoir of mystical power (mana points). Preparing a spell give a bonus on the casting roll, so memorization still has its place. So a spellcaster does not know how many mana points he has left, just whether he has relatively large stores of mystical energy left, or if he is almost depleted.