The place of Science in Fantasy settings

[LoneWolf23]

Something I noticed seldom gets talked about in fantasy setting; the development of the sciences. And I don't mean advanced technology like clockwork or steamtech, but simpler sciences like basic mathematics and engineering. But most Fantasy settings are slightly based on Medieval Europe, and by that time humanity had developped Algebra, stirrups, oceangoing sailing ships, steel weapons, plate armor, castles, windmills, early anatomical science, book printing, the pulley system, etc.

In our world, most of these discoveries developped over time thanks to numerous inventors, some of which, like Archimedes, Pythagorus or Leonardo DaVinci, are still famous today. But what of fantasy settings? How do such sciences get developped in settings where fully functionl magic is available?

 

[DragonLancer]

Because not everyone has access to magic/psionics, and so the common man has to invent them himself. Often, I can see them being based upon seeing something magical and thinking "hey, I could do that without the magic."

 

[WayneLigon]

I'd say they get developed just as quickly, or perhaps even quicker. Mages above the 'hedge wizard' variety are still far too rare - even with the DMG's sometimes over-generous amount of classed people in a city of x size - to supplant most things that drive people to invent or learn. An inventor that was friends with a wizard might be much better off. The wizard can create a headband of intellect +2, create some raw materials or simple helpers for him to take over the grunt work and let him cogitate, or use just 'resist energy' on him to protect him from his experiments.

 

[MarkB]

I'd like to think that, in a setting where magic is part of the natural order of things, wizardry is simply a specialised avenue of science - and as with any real-world specialisation, there will be cross-pollination of ideas between that field and all others. After all, you can't use arcane might to alter the fundamental nature of reality unless you've got a pretty decent grasp of what reality is in the first place.

Basically, the presence of magic doesn't prevent the development of other scientific areas, any more than the harnessing of electricity stopped us from developing other fields of science and technology. It's a useful tool, which can not only exist alongside other disciplines but actually make them easier to research.

 

[Grue]

Well, I'd say as a general rule science in most gm's campaigns gets hand waved. Unless the players enjoy the minutiae of the details it really doesn't add to the fun of the game for an evenings play. Frankly, if it's considered at all, I think a number of gm's are a bit leery of thinking up the consequences for the 'realistic' impact of magic on science\technology coming into their pseudo-medieval campaign worlds... especially when the occasional smart alecky player may get the bright idea of trying to jumpstart the industrial revolution (and inevitably shifts the game from the usual fantasy focus).

That being said, I do like thinking about it, even if I just end up hand waving it myself and sticking with the typical fantasy pseudo-medieval schlock. For one, just sticking with core d&d magic and adding it to a medieval world, unless you're running a very low magic setting... or at least a world where spellcasters are rare... the realistic consequences are pretty substantial.

For one I think scientific progress gets pushed along faster as the result of magic. Even if the spellcaster population is relatively low to have a direct economic\lifestyle impact, their discoveries using magic would almost certainly spur on mundane advances. A basic Fly spell would greatly aid mapmaking... it would also probably lead to the discovery if the world was flat or round (or a big disk on an elephant's back riding a turtle) pretty early (celestial mechanics and mathematics). Opening up perfectly normal trade routes and the economic benefits of discovering new lands. Longer trade routes, spurring both advances in finance and the development of sailing ships.

Using Fabricate, Stone Shape, Move Earth, Transmute Rock to Mud\Mud to Rock or any of the construction useful spells would still lead to if not encourage advances in architecture to keep the final structures from collapsing from their own weight (also probably ensuring the progress of geometry and more mathematics as well). Square set timbering for deep mines could get developed earlier with the assistance of continual flame, and undead or constructs to man the pumps (or mills or anything else you would use a steam engine for). More productive mines would push metallurgy (to process the ore) and transport (to move the increased production).

I think magic would push the science if only for the simple reason that it would trail blaze discoveries by showing what is possible or discovering\experimenting new techniques a lot cheaper and faster than what could be accomplished the old fashioned way.

Tech that takes a hit.... castles certainly. Even adding magical defenses, unless doing so is relatively cheap (like a common metal that interferes with magic) it would probably be too expensive to fulfil their primary purpose of denying territory to an invader (and projecting power on the locals). Medicine may also take a hit, but without digging into the history I don't think it was really too advanced pre-Renaissance anyway, but I doubt it would stunt the growth of medicine. The existence of magic would probably create 'natural-philosophers' ... or at least wizards who think about the how and why things work so they can mess around more precisely with the processes of the physical world.

 

[prosfilaes]

But technology frequently does kill off alternatives. Rob Pike, co-creator of Unix, etc., wrote an article called "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant", about how computer science is so lacking innovation. The first thing that happens to any new operating system is that it gets a Unix compatibility layer added so everything can treat it as just another Unix. You want to make a new car; great, as long as it can pass a thousand and one rules and regulations. There's theory that we could replace a lot of electronics with photonic systems, but nobody is going to spend the billions or even trillions it would take to make photonic systems viable competitors to electronic systems.

In a D&D world, some sciences wouldn't grow. Vaccination might be learned, and if the gods were seriously stingy with their magic, there might be real non-magical remedies for broken bones and the like, but a real cleric is going to be cheaper, faster and more reliable than ICU. Given even slight advancement in magical teleportation or portals would make commercial air travel completely unfeasible.

It depends a lot on how common and cheap magic is, but good businessmen don't spend lots of money to develop alternatives to working tools.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I'm going a bit wider than the OP may have intended but this is where the question is taking me.

There's a lot of factor's that can influence technological development in a fantasy game world. A somewhat unstructured case study comparing Eberron to Greyhawk follows. I've chosen the two extremes within DnD canon to best illustrate points.

I agree the amount of magic in a campaign will be a major influence on the development of technology. In Eberron magic is technology; it's just a matter of semantics really. In Greyhawk there's not that much magic available to the masses; magic is a rare and mysterious thing.

The amount of magic available has a direct influence on technological development. More magic = more opportunity to develop technology. Of course more magic also = less need to develop "technology" (in the real world sense) but magic-tech will do just as well for me for purposes of this discussion. Magic can be used to overcome many of the problems of developing technology. Power source, R&D, scientific investigation (need to see the micro structure of this steel girder? Hang on, I'll put on my eyes of minute seeing.)

In Eberron you get a well developed pseudo-technology. Mass transport, telecommunications. Heck I don't see why wide screen crystal balls can't be developed to transmit news and entertainment to the masses. I'm sure it's possible within the rules and the flavour of the game. There also seems to be an assumption about better production techniques for more basic things, like buildings. (Sky scrapers aren't possible with medieval tech.) And rail lines require an enormous amount of steel track that must all be made to a single standard (and laid to single gauge. Is the lightning rail mono- or dual- rail?) All this is possible in Eberron because magic has been harnessed for the use with modern ideas like mass production.

In Greyhawk magic is mysterious and controlled by elites who don't want to share what they have for fear of diluting the power of their knowledge. This reduces the chances for interesting synergies to develop. And many essential modern ideas are just... not there.

It's been mentioned that a society without magic will have more need to develop technology. I agree. But how far this technology can be developed will depend on other factors.

For instance: there's the effects of sociological development.

Eberron has Houses that make their money by selling the benefits of technology, just like modern companies. It is in their interest to make technology available to all. Or at least the benefits of technology. Obviously they wish to guard their production techniques but they actively want to sell their products. And they have markets that can afford what they have to sell.

Greyhawk has secretive guilds that jealously guard what they know. And not just wizard's guilds but non-magical guilds too. They don't wish to share the knowledge they have for fear of losing power and influence. Hell, maintaining a monoply of a trade/industry is why guilds form. Now a big enough monopoly can use their power to make advancements in their industry, but only if they feel the need to do so.

Why, you may ask, don't the guilds in Greyhawk realise what they're sitting on? Why don't they make the leap to using their skills to make a profit in the same way as Eberron Houses do? Why don't they use their power to mass produce and mass market? Answer: because they don't have concepts like mass production and mass marketing. Or even the belief that an economy can expand independantly of the supply of precious metals. (fortunately not a problem in your average DnD game.) They are limited in what they can achieve by what they believe. And what they believe is medieval. They need a major intellectual revolution. They need to move from a medieval mind set to a modern one. Of course this is possible, it just hasn't happened yet. Also it happens slowly when it does happen.

Certainly there is technology available to the Greyhawkers. Water wheels and windmills are great, and relatively cheap sources of power. But they are very limited in terms of output, not to mention unreliable in terms of constant output. By contrast Eberron has magic as a power source and magic will give a much greater and more constant output. Much better for mass production.

There's all sorts of other factors as well. As I said above: Eberron has large markets. Greyhawk does not. Houses are trans-national entities that can benefit from a World War by selling to all sides. Their counterparts in Greyhawk cannot trade with a nation their homeland is at war with. Not without serious risk of beheading anyway.

The use of standardised parts is a great innovation, without which much modern industry would be impossible. Standardised parts can be developed in a medieval setting. The Venetians used them in ship construction during the middle ages. But someone still has to have the idea and the idea has to be implemented which requires some sort of strong, long lasting, centralised adminstration. Which Venice had. Eberron may well have the necessary governmental infrastructure as well. Some places in Greyhawk might also. But the idea still has to be had, and the need to mass produce must exist. ie: there must be a market to sell all those ships too, otherwise why build them? And since they are reliant on a centralised authority the destruction of that authority will be the end of the production of those standardised parts.

Then there's capital. This is a biggy. Implicit in the development of technology is the ablility to build the necessary infrastructure to build the technology in the first place. This requires money. And of course if there's going to be investment in infrastructure there has to be the possibility of making a profit from that investment. This requires a market for the goods. No market = no investment = no technology (even if the idea exists on paper it won't go into production.)

If this all sounds like it's going around in circles: well it is. The system is one that feeds back into itself. Small changes here can make big changes further along the line. Thus it gets very messy.

To sum up: Technology will develop in much the same ways in a a magical world as in the real world. Magic can act as an impetus to this development by providing power. It can also act as a deterrent to developing regular technology by being a better and cheaper solution to those problems technology would normally be used to overcome. For instance: why develop a pulley system when you can get a tame elemental to lift that heavy object? It all depends on the exact how's and why's in any particular game world.

A rather long way around to get to "it depends" but I thought I'd throw out a few of the ideas that the question provoke in me. Look forward to hearing what others think on the subject.
regards,
Glen

 

[Grue]

Heh... before pushing off into the Age of Enlightenment (and past the original poster's medieval tech level), the only tech I think that gets cut is castle development. Assuming the builder isn't outlaying additional times the cost of the castle in magical defenses as well, I don't think there is a good way for the castle to continue to do it's job. I think most everything else does get developed to at least a medieval level.

On magictech... one of the big problems with magic replacing technology is economy of scale. By RAW magic will be relegated to elites, most spells too expensive and out of reach for the common sapient, magic items will cost at least reserve points (and almost certainly xp somewhere in the loop). Why spend a lot of gold and experience when a pulley does roughly the same job? Magic to perform mundane tasks I would see more as a toy or extravagance (to impress the neighbors) when usuable cheaper nonmagical solutions are obtainable.

Venice (and ancient Greece, the Dutch, and the UK) got their tech kick in the pants from trade and finance. A traveling merchant doesn't fit into the guild system from what I recall. IIRC they were one of the causes of the fall of the medieval guild. Consider a merchant who also happens to be a wizard who uses his spells to open up trade routes and teleport around the region to check prices (to figure out where he should buy and sell his bulk goods). His success is going to breed imitation... generating a lot of capital and bootstrapping a medieval economy to something a bit more complex. It would only take one bright boy mage to spark the whole thing off (and it's really not much of a leap of innovative thinking at all).

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Magic Enhanced Trade.

Grue: Yep I can see that happening. That would be the beginning of vastly improved trade, leading to increases in wealth and a growing middle class. All things that can help boost techological development. And I agree that it only takes one bright mage to come up with the idea. It will still take time for the changes to permeate the whole of society but that's neither here nor there really. The changes WILL happen eventually.

The first thing I could see it leading to is improved teleport spells. No-one wants their valuable cargo to appear a hundred metres in the air.

 

[Grue]

The first thing I could see it leading to is improved teleport spells. No-one wants their valuable cargo to appear a hundred metres in the air.

Well, bulk would be the key. Also consider the failure rate for teleport I believe would be much much lower than the actual historical failure rate of the cargoes coming from Asia in the 16th century. By a modern standard those merchants took insane risks but if they made it they were more or less set for life (they could afford to make a good marriage and buy a new set of choppers to replace the teeth they lost to scurvy)

That being said, it may well be worth the cost for a wizard to set up a magical portal chain to move goods. Though maybe just as economical to move things the old fashioned way. Without crunching the numbers a 9th level wizard with a cog or two at his disposal could probably move a lot of goods in bulk to and from the best markets he can scout out (using his daily allotment of teleports to keep an eye on regional prices).

As far as how quickly things could change.... 17th century England went through a big transformation.... hmm... maybe not the best example for a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. Maybe the Italian city-states in the 14th-15th? I don't think it took long for the wealth the merchant princes were accumulating to fundamentally change things and become the new status quo. Maybe three generations?