The place of Science in Fantasy settings

[Switchblade]

What prevents this from being meaningful in many game world settings is that 'magic' has no true parameters that would be determinable in a scientific sense. Ars Magica is one of the few games, for example, that sets down what can and can't be done with magic.

Nitpicking a little but Ars Magica doesn't do that exactly (Uh, I am an edition behind mind as everyone down this way took one look at 5th ed and ditched it in favour of 4th) It states what is possible within the current boundaries of Hermetic Theory. This does not neccisarily apply to other types of magic and can be broken by the Original Research rules from the Wizards Grimouire as it is magial theory rather than law.

Ultimately it all comes down to what makes a good game and what the players want but I can see no reason why magic and "science" (read technology) should be mutually exclusive. Sure, the lightbulb and gas lamp may not get anything other than curiosity value when for 25gp a continual light can be cast but generally magic would not impact too closely on peoples lives to prevent people seeking innovation to make their lives easier. Magic isn't going to replace the three field system, replace the horse collar and plough. People are still going to boil water and ships are going to need bilge pumps so there is no reason magic would stop the invention of the railway. Magic isn't likely to provide a cheaper mass transport alternative so that could quite easily develop without magic undully influencing it. Mills and factories aren't going to be useless even if some bloke can cast a fireball. I quite like the idea of mages illegally downloading the latest spell onto their laptop to avoid paying royalties and a seer using a computer model of the planets to predict the future for an insurance company or steam engines that use wonderous items of "heat metal" to put into the water (i.e magic fuel rods) to power trains and power stations rather than coal. Cheaper and cleaner in the long run.

There are so many possibilities, it seems a shame to deny them when there is so much fun to be had crafting such a world and working out how they would impact on each other.

 

[prosfilaes]

Ultimately it all comes down to what makes a good game and what the players want but I can see no reason why magic and "science" (read technology) should be mutually exclusive.

Because overly unusual settings are rarely the most successful. Medieval-esque technology plus magic is familiar and easy to understand; one person's vision of what technology might of evolved into with magic is unfamiliar and confusing. That's not to say it can't be done, but it's harder to do well.

ships are going to need bilge pumps

Why? It seems well with in range of D&D magic to cast a spell to protect a ship from water. It's likely to be cheaper and more reliable than any sort of technology.

Magic isn't likely to provide a cheaper mass transport alternative so that could quite easily develop without magic undully influencing it.

A permanent Teleport Circle is Core magic. If you do it in the real world, after all the development costs on modern mass transport have been paid, people would be lining up for them at a 100 million dollars a circle. (Given that the cost of a new 747 is 200-300 million dollars, and that doesn't include maintenance, fuel or crew...) I think that could entice an 18th level wizard to set a few of them up.

There are so many possibilities, it seems a shame to deny them when there is so much fun to be had crafting such a world and working out how they would impact on each other.

Sure, it 's great fun setting up the world. But does it make for a more interesting world to play in that will attract more players? I think it makes for a harder world to make, since it takes a lot of study to make it right, and I don't know that it will make for a more fun world to play in.

The most successful case where this was done was GURPS Technomancer, I believe. And GT was not a full supported setting; it was one book and a ebook-only supplement, made for a system that has a lot of unusual one-off settings (and hence presumably they sell to the audience for GURPS.)

 

[Switchblade]

A permanent Teleport Circle is Core magic. If you do it in the real world, after all the development costs on modern mass transport have been paid, people would be lining up for them at a 100 million dollars a circle. (Given that the cost of a new 747 is 200-300 million dollars, and that doesn't include maintenance, fuel or crew...) I think that could entice an 18th level wizard to set a few of them up.

The age of rail was so successful because it was a cheap method of travel, for the first time travel became affordable to the lower rungs of society. And how common would an 18th level wizard be? Would they really have the time and inclination to set up many of these?

 

[Switchblade]

Because overly unusual settings are rarely the most successful. Medieval-esque technology plus magic is familiar and easy to understand; one person's vision of what technology might of evolved into with magic is unfamiliar and confusing. That's not to say it can't be done, but it's harder to do well.




Why? It seems well with in range of D&D magic to cast a spell to protect a ship from water. It's likely to be cheaper and more reliable than any sort of technology.

For magic and steam engines that are really good games just off the top of my head are Iron Kingdoms and Deadlands. How is it different from learning any other background?

Magic item cheaper than a simple bilge pump? Unlikely
More reliable? Possibly but I'd be rather dubious about a ship that has it's sea worthyness severely handicaped due to a counter spell, anti magic zone etc.

 

[helium3]

Well, I'd say as a general rule science in most gm's campaigns gets hand waved. Unless the players enjoy the minutiae of the details it really doesn't add to the fun of the game for an evenings play. Frankly, if it's considered at all, I think a number of gm's are a bit leery of thinking up the consequences for the 'realistic' impact of magic on science\technology coming into their pseudo-medieval campaign worlds... especially when the occasional smart alecky player may get the bright idea of trying to jumpstart the industrial revolution (and inevitably shifts the game from the usual fantasy focus).

Generally, I agree. Most DM's won't get much bang for their buck if they get into the whole magic vs. non-magic issue. In a published setting it makes more sense, as pursuing the whole "what-if" vein of thought can often lead to concepts that make the setting innovative. As some people pointed out, Ebberon seems to largely be an example of the conclusions arrived at by just such a process of "what-if."

 

[prosfilaes]

The age of rail was so successful because it was a cheap method of travel, for the first time travel became affordable to the lower rungs of society. And how common would an 18th level wizard be? Would they really have the time and inclination to set up many of these?

As I said, a Boeing 747, which you can ride on for a few hundred bucks, costs 200 million dollars. And a Teleportation Circle is the height of comfort compared to a plane ride. If there were just one 18th level wizard around willing to set up just one or two of these, I think we'd be talking a billion dollars, easily.

Seriously, to jump a flight, business class, from New York to London, tomorrow, would cost me $4,000. Only 250,000 people would have to travel by teleportation instead of a 7 hour business class flight to make up that billion. And a billion dollars is a heck of a lot incentive.

How many 18th level wizards are there? I suspect there would be tens of thousands in the modern world; that's only one per every hundred thousand, which seems roughly on par with Faerun. I think even if there were a mere handful of known 18th level wizards, someone would cast these circles at a billion a pop, and these circles would make changes in high-end travel. If one out of every million people was an 18th level wizard, I suspect that even cheap airplane travel would be replaced by teleportation cirlces, even while it was making every 18th level wizard a multi-millionare.

 

[prosfilaes]

More reliable? Possibly but I'd be rather dubious about a ship that has it's sea worthyness severely handicaped due to a counter spell, anti magic zone etc.

That depends on how common antimagic zones are. As for counterspells, a caster doesn't need a counterspell to severely handicap the seaworthyness; it's called fireball.

 

[Contrarian]

In my 1E/2E campaign world, I always figured that the races that don't have magic-users (remember race/class limitations?) would be the ones that invested in science and engineering. So it's the dwarves who've pushed technology a little farther -- steam power, gunpowder, coal furnaces, a slightly better knowledge of chemistry, etc. But it doesn't have a huge effect on player characters, because most of the cool stuff is too big for players to carry around (e.g., cannons, not six-shooters), but it helps explain how dwarves compete with the elves in terms of influence.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Where did you get that from?

I was not talking about Urbis. However; (A) we are not the people planning 4th Ed., the staff of WotC is and they are doing it without our input; (B) the game, and a lot of fantasy, assumes a default mode of "magic and science are incompatible" and sometimes science may even be painted as sinister, and this tradition will likely continue in 4th ed.