The place of Science in Fantasy settings

[AnonymousOne]

We are currently working on a fully built base class. (Though I know the OP wanted to exclude clockwork etc.)

The Technomancer.

This is a good deal different from the GURPS class and because it's a blend of a Warlock and Psion (Psion in that it uses a charge point reserve to modify and use his abilities), it is a ton of work. Hopefully I can get everything finished up in a month or so and get a Creative Commons License for it and put it up here.

He has a Blast like the warlock, can undertake various research projects including levels of body enhancement and modification, building constructs as companions/familiars, construction of explosives/acids, and some energy and magnetism based 'spells'.

The hardest part is developing the Charge Point reserve and cost system. I'm looking a lot to the XPH for guidance and because he's got a scaling blast ability I'm trying to tone down his 'casting' ability.

I love the idea of incorporating science into the DnD world. It provides an interesting tension between the magic wielders and the Technomancers.

 

[prosfilaes]

*PS I always love to point out that Newton was NOT a scientist - he is instead the worlds most famous alchemist and natural philosopher

That's like saying that Einstein wasn't a scientist; he was a Wissenschaftler. The change in language does not invoke a change in reality.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Magic can be part of the circle of innovation just as much as "mundane" technology.

Again, this perspective does not matter, except in the execution of your own home game. One of the elements, stated or unstated, of 4th Edition will be that "magic and science are incompatible" and so that will be the law of the land.

Science may even be painted as sinister.

The change in language does not invoke a change in reality.

Amen. For all the good the sentiment does.

 

[Tonguez]

The change in language does not invoke a change in reality.

Actually it does - but thats another debate

But just considering the words 'Natural Philosopher' does not equal 'Scientist' as its not so much a change in language as it is a change in philosophy

taking Newton again: Netwon beleived that Light waves, sound waves as well as planets and stars traveled through this ether. He believed that it was the interaction between the Pneuma (the vegetative spirit of God) and molecules of matter within the ether that gave rise to all the chemical reactions observed in nature. Nature worked in accordance with the direct guidance of the creator

Science is mechanistic and omits anything that can not be physically observed
Natural Philosophy includes acknowledgement of the Divine and the pressence of supernatural forces.

 

[Johnny Angel]

Netwon beleived that Light waves, sound waves as well as planets and stars traveled through this ether. He believed that it was the interaction between the Pneuma (the vegetative spirit of God) and molecules of matter within the ether that gave rise to all the chemical reactions observed in nature.

But Newton realized that he was being embarrassingly unscientific in having to multiply entities to fit his theory. That is why he denied having such an explanation in the works he actually published in his life. Instead he responded to questions of the mechanisms by which bodies acted with his famous phrase hopothesis non fingo. Also, he was too busy writing hundreds of pages of biblical prophecy.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

In considering this, as well as various other aspects of human life in a given setting, people tend to forget the presence of sentient non-human creatures in the setting.

Gnomes, depending on what conception of them you use in your game, would be plunging headlong into the advancement of the sciences. They're portrayed as often the most scientifically-apt of the major races, and especially in the physical sciences, they will likely be leaders in research and development. Dwarves can also contribute to engineering and technology, but they're traditionally depicted as more conservative. Gnomes are also very skilled craftsmen and miners themselves, so they might be the leaders in technological development.

On the other hand, nonhuman creatures might end up consuming a lot of natural resources that would otherwise be used to fuel technological advancement. Fossil fuels played a key role in the Industrial Revolution-if races like orcs, hill giants, and other races that don't give a flying fig about technology use a lot of the coal and oil for their forges, cooking fires, and balls of flaming pitch, that can severely limit the amount of fuel available for mass industrialization. People often have more practical uses for oil-what does your average city dweller care about more, having oil to burn invading trolls, or letting the town eccentric waste it all on his cockamamie projects?

At the same time, the amount of magic can also affect the pace of technology. Previous posters have noted teleporting wizards...but what if your setting simply doesn't have enough high-level wizards to do the teleporting? If reaching 6th level as a wizard means you have real talent, then it's exceedingly unlikely that there will even be enough wizards capable of teleporting to do anything at all-and how many of the wizards who can teleport are willing to waste their energies blinking around the continent seeking out new markets? If a merchant wants to scout out a safe route through the forest or the hills for his caravans to reach that rich mining community, or the port town that's rapidly growing as a trading hub and is the perfect place for an enterprising businessman, he can hire some adventurers, who are probably more apt for that sort of thing, anyway.

Similarly, you can simply mess with physics a bit to cherry pick what kind of technology you want in your campaign. No matter how hard they try, alchemists just can't get this stuff called "smokepowder" to work. It just becomes an inert waste of chemicals that won't burn, much less project a missile over a long distance. After all, if wizards can essentially create energy out of nothing with fireballs and lightning bolts, and directly violate the laws of physics in the process, surely not all chemicals will react the same way?

In this manner, you can allow for greater advancements in fields like anatomy, biology, or physics without subjecting your world to an industrial revolution in the process. Ten thousand years from now, people will still be wielding broadswords and wearing armor in combat, simply because they can't create any kind of more advanced weaponry. The internal combustion and the firearm never get a hold, and man can never fly without magical aid.

In this way, a DM can justify why his or her science works the way it does, and to quash any player hopes of starting an Industrial Revolution. I'd permit a lot of things with my players, if I had any, but industrialization would not be one of them-if a player insisted on it, he'd be more than welcome to go find another game.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

The internal combustion and the firearm never get a hold, and man can never fly without magical aid.

In this way, a DM can justify why his or her science works the way it does, and to quash any player hopes of starting an Industrial Revolution. I'd permit a lot of things with my players, if I had any, but industrialization would not be one of them-if a player insisted on it, he'd be more than welcome to go find another game.

Working steam powered aircraft have been built. As for not allowing gunpowder and such, if that's what I want I say that the Gods have cast some whomping Big Mojo that will cause it to not work. No messing with physics directly, impossible to work around. (Mortals in my games can't be more powerful than the gods.)

 

[Dr Simon]

As others have pointed out, 'Science' is a method, not a concrete entity. 'Science' is an attempt to understand the nature of reality by forming *testable* hypotheses, performing the necessary tests and re-evaluating based upon *observable* results.

There is absolutely no reason why the phenomenon of 'magic' could not be studied using scientific method. One almost assumes that Wizardly magic in D&D *does* follow this pattern because spells can be researched and it is an INT-based procedure, whereas WIS-based magic relies more on losing the self and being receptive to outside forces. However, this does not need to be case. The study of Arcane magic could be as much a matter of pure luck and random stabs in the dark based upon unsound principles (much as historical alchemy or a lot of medicine would have been. Concepts like the Four Humours were based upon the *unscientific* principle of 'thinking of something that sounds like it might be right, and assuming that it is'. If it was written by an ancient Greek, all the better, must be true).

What prevents this from being meaningful in many game world settings is that 'magic' has no true parameters that would be determinable in a scientific sense. Ars Magica is one of the few games, for example, that sets down what can and can't be done with magic.

Glorantha is a world where mythology and magic take the place of physics in deciding how the world runs. Rivers run downstream not because of gravity, but because the river gods are all scions of the primal water god, and they are answering his call to plug the hole in the centre of creation. Except the Wrong Way River, who wasn't listening (all rivers originally being part of the sea probing upwards onto land, you see). In fact, Glorantha features the God Learners, who *are* individuals who apply scientific thinking to the myth-mechanic of the world. They conduct experiments along the lines of 'what would happen if we swapped two fertility goddesses of two different nations around?'. They are very powerful, but there are more powerful mystical forces who don't appreciate being treated like lab rats....

*Technology*, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. It depends, as above, if magic is seperate to physics or, in the case of Glorantha, *is* the 'physics' of that world. Again in most cases it is not a meaningful question because the underlying nature of the universe is not defined. Eberron at least takes D&D magic and uses it as the basis for its 'technology'. The assumption ought to be that *that* is the way things will work and no other. If you have the Lightning Rail then you cannot also have an electric mag-lev train not because magic and 'science' don't mix, but because *instead of* electromagnetism you have Elemental Magic.

In cases where magic is an add-on to 'real world' physics (such as Shadowrun), it has more of a mystical component. It needs a living mind, a living soul to craft it, and it is by its nature changeable and difficult to pin down. Shadowrun doesn't allow for bullets +1 or the like. Sure, you can fireball people but, particularly in the later incarnations of the setting, magic becomes much more an ephemeral force than simply another tool. I'm afraid I don't know Urban Arcana to tell how that takes the matter.

You could, to return to fantasy realms for the moment, envisage a setting where Lightning Rails *and* electric maglev trains were possible. One requires a person sensitive to the flow of magic to create, the other requires knowledge. Assuming similar costings, and assuming there to be more Experts than there are Wizards, the 'real-tech' stuff would gradually push out the 'magi-tech' stuff. It could, theoretically, be an interesting setting.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Again, this perspective does not matter, except in the execution of your own home game. One of the elements, stated or unstated, of 4th Edition will be that "magic and science are incompatible" and so that will be the law of the land.

Science may even be painted as sinister.

Huh? Where did you get that from?

I'd really like to know, since this touches upon some core issues of Urbis - which I want to convert to 4E.

 

[Creamsteak]

One of my personal thoughts is, as a player, I only want to be concerned with what is narratively relevant. I don't mind that a 1st level character can die from a 10 foot fall, while a 10th level character might survive 100. That is, so long as it fits the action. On the other end of the scale, if there are laser cannons and such, that's fine with me, so long as it fits the story. Personally, I like the way Eberron handles it.