D&D General The Player's Quantum Ogre: Warlock Pacts

[Bae'zel]

Aside from jerk-off DMs picking on Warlocks (and paladins, and clerics etc), I was curious about something.

For those of you who want to remove the pact-patron back and forth relationship... what exactly did you character do to arrange the pact? A pact involves a cost or mutually-agreed upon bargain of some sort. The very WORDING of the powers includese the word "pact".

So your character gets awesome powers for free... what's in it for the patron? What did they get out of this "pact"? If the PC walks away with ever increasing power (the lore of the class stipulates that the power source IS the patron)... what does the patron gain from this one-sided relationship?

There must be SOMETHING there, even if its just fluff. Perhaps the Warlock has to spread the Faith? Align with the goals of the Feywild? Mark every temple across the world with their Patron's secret 'mark"? Something.

To me, this is a bit like "Atheist Clerics". Don't get me started LOL

If I had a player (in a bog-standard D&D setting) who insisted that they wanted the game mechanics of the Warlock class but without ANY of the fluff or concepts of it... I'd allow it but call them something else (they're a Sorceror from a very unique, special culture or something, or a Fey Shaman or whatever).

 

[TiQuinn]

Aside from jerk-off DMs picking on Warlocks (and paladins, and clerics etc), I was curious about something.

For those of you who want to remove the pact-patron back and forth relationship... what exactly did you character do to arrange the pact? A pact involves a cost or mutually-agreed upon bargain of some sort. The very WORDING of the powers includese the word "pact".

So your character gets awesome powers for free... what's in it for the patron? What did they get out of this "pact"? If the PC walks away with ever increasing power (the lore of the class stipulates that the power source IS the patron)... what does the patron gain from this one-sided relationship?

There must be SOMETHING there, even if its just fluff. Perhaps the Warlock has to spread the Faith? Align with the goals of the Feywild? Mark every temple across the world with their Patron's secret 'mark"? Something.

To me, this is a bit like "Atheist Clerics". Don't get me started LOL

If I had a player (in a bog-standard D&D setting) who insisted that they wanted the game mechanics of the Warlock class but without ANY of the fluff or concepts of it... I'd allow it but call them something else (they're a Sorceror from a very unique, special culture or something, or a Fey Shaman or whatever).

I would say that's the same for virtually any character. Wizards are apprentices, but apprenticeship didn't come for free - why does that never get questioned in games? Fighters probably received training in the military typically, but why is it assumed they have no further obligations? Cleric have their churches and so forth.

The answer really comes down to the background of the character, and how much the player and the DM want to make the character's background important to the present day game. Maybe a Patron gifted them powers, and it's a Machivellian wheels within wheels scheme on the part of some fiend. What if the pact was no more than accepting a gift, and there was an unspoken acceptance of a pact simply by taking the gift? The thing is that the game doesn't dictate one way or the other - that's up the to the DM and the player to define.

 

[TwoSix]

So your character gets awesome powers for free... what's in it for the patron? What did they get out of this "pact"? If the PC walks away with ever increasing power (the lore of the class stipulates that the power source IS the patron)... what does the patron gain from this one-sided relationship?

There must be SOMETHING there, even if its just fluff. Perhaps the Warlock has to spread the Faith? Align with the goals of the Feywild? Mark every temple across the world with their Patron's secret 'mark"? Something.

The last I ran a warlock, their Hexblade "patron" was a Venom-like spiritual symbiote that was slowly consuming the character's memories and vitality. It had no goals other than keeping the character alive so it could continue to consume them.

If I had a player (in a bog-standard D&D setting) who insisted that they wanted the game mechanics of the Warlock class but without ANY of the fluff or concepts of it... I'd allow it but call them something else (they're a Sorceror from a very unique, special culture or something, or a Fey Shaman or whatever).

Sure, why not? I don't typically run as though "class" is actually visible in the fiction anyway. There's no in-fiction distinction between people who do different styles of magic, other than "they do different kinds of magic."

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Aside from jerk-off DMs picking on Warlocks (and paladins, and clerics etc), I was curious about something.

For those of you who want to remove the pact-patron back and forth relationship... what exactly did you character do to arrange the pact? A pact involves a cost or mutually-agreed upon bargain of some sort. The very WORDING of the powers includese the word "pact".

So your character gets awesome powers for free... what's in it for the patron? What did they get out of this "pact"? If the PC walks away with ever increasing power (the lore of the class stipulates that the power source IS the patron)... what does the patron gain from this one-sided relationship?

There must be SOMETHING there, even if its just fluff. Perhaps the Warlock has to spread the Faith? Align with the goals of the Feywild? Mark every temple across the world with their Patron's secret 'mark"? Something.

To me, this is a bit like "Atheist Clerics". Don't get me started LOL

If I had a player (in a bog-standard D&D setting) who insisted that they wanted the game mechanics of the Warlock class but without ANY of the fluff or concepts of it... I'd allow it but call them something else (they're a Sorceror from a very unique, special culture or something, or a Fey Shaman or whatever).

A lot really depends on the kind of game being run. I suspect that a lot of the people pushing for DM authority over aspects of the pact are running some kind of home brewed game. If one is published adventures then it is possible to run an entire campaign without the nature of the pact (or the gods for that matter) ever coming up.

I could also see a games where the DM pitches situations and hooks and only responds to hooks the party bites on also running a campaign where the specifics of the pact never comes up.
To be honest the nature of the pact is not something I would be likely to bring up unless the player expressed and interest in that and even better had some line they wanted to engage with.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A lot really depends on the kind of game being run. I suspect that a lot of the people pushing for DM authority over aspects of the pact are running some kind of home brewed game. If one is published adventures then it is possible to run an entire campaign without the nature of the pact (or the gods for that matter) ever coming up.

I could also see a games where the DM pitches situations and hooks and only responds to hooks the party bites on also running a campaign where the specifics of the pact never comes up.
To be honest the nature of the pact is not something I would be likely to bring up unless the player expressed and interest in that and even better had some line they wanted to engage with.

It's true that I only run homebrew campaigns. I've never run a published adventure straight, just use them as fodder for my setting.

 

[Scribe]

Yikes. I'll be honest, if I didn't have several RL friend circles to play with, I would have been out of the hobby a long time ago. I enjoy RPing a lot, but not enough to hunt down games like a Tinder date.

Agreed.

 

[Remathilis]

For those of you who want to remove the pact-patron back and forth relationship... what exactly did you character do to arrange the pact? A pact involves a cost or mutually-agreed upon bargain of some sort. The very WORDING of the powers includese the word "pact".

So your character gets awesome powers for free... what's in it for the patron? What did they get out of this "pact"? If the PC walks away with ever increasing power (the lore of the class stipulates that the power source IS the patron)... what does the patron gain from this one-sided relationship?

For me, it comes down to four distinct types of pacts that, while they align to the four subclasses in the PHB, aren't bound to a specific patron type:

• Your soul is mine: the patron has claimed some greater prize from the warlock to be paid later, and thus doesn't care about the daily doings of the warlock. After all, you can spend your entire life doing good deeds but the patron is still going to claim you soul or your firstborn child or whatever. This is literally the Faustian Deal.
• Mercurial whims: the patron is aloof and appears disinterested, but secretly manipulates the warlock by making the warlock think he's making his own choices but in reality is doing what the patron wanted all along. This type of patron is reactive and requires the DM to constantly be reframing past events as part of the Grand Scheme, even if they might appear contradictory at first.
• The Ally: the patron is genuinely a nice guy and actually cares for their warlock. This is most common in celestial and genie pacts, but could apply to fey or other non-evil patrons. The warlock is content that giving the warlock a gift and telling them to "do good" in the world is payment enough.
• The parasite. Not all patrons are even aware the warlock exists. Demonology is full of examples of calling on lesser fiends to offer a sliver of their master's power. Great Old Ones blissfully slumber while warlocks enact rights to draw on their cosmic power. An undeath pact makes a "pact" with Death itself (a la Strahd Von Zarovich) rather than a specific undead. In these cases, the warlock gains his pacts via ritual and esoteric knowledge rather than bargaining.

It's also important to know that most patrons are distinctly less powerful than Gods. They are not omnipotent or omnipresent. It's not like Orcus can show up and voice his displeasure even if the warlock goes about ruining Orcus's plans. He might not even know until the warlock draws attention to himself the same way any adventurer draws the ire of a demon lord.

To me, this is a bit like "Atheist Clerics". Don't get me started LOL).

There are lots of things that aren't deities that people can still derive faith from: elemental forces on Athas, the Divinity of Mankind, cults devoted to demons and other powerful creatures. The Athar draw power from the belief gods are frauds, the Dustmen form Death itself and the Minds Eye from the power of creation (the source). Eberron has the Path of Inspiration which has Buddhist like beliefs and ancestors worship amongst the elves. Ravenloft's Ezra has different doctrine and beliefs depending on what domain you are in. To be honest, the Olympic version of Zeus tossing a lightning bolt at an offending priest is far less interesting than any of the ones I just mentioned.

 

[Voadam]

So the 9th level contact patron thing is new to the 24 warlock, it was not part of being a warlock in the 14 PH.

It gives a contact other plane once a day to their patron with an auto successful save and they always have the spell prepared.

Level 9: Contact Patron
In the past, you usually contacted your patron through intermediaries. Now you can communicate directly; you always have the Contact Other Plane spell prepared. With this feature, you can cast the spell without expending a spell slot to contact your patron, and you automatically succeed on the spell’s saving throw.
Once you cast the spell with this feature, you can’t do so in this way again until you finish a Long Rest.

Contact Other Plane
Level 5 Divination (Warlock, Wizard)
Casting Time: 1 minute or Ritual
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: 1 minute
You mentally contact a demigod, the spirit of a long-dead sage, or some other knowledgeable entity from another plane. Contacting this otherworldly intelligence can break your mind. When you cast this spell, make a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw. On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.
On a failed save, you take 6d6 Psychic damage and have the Incapacitated condition until you finish a Long Rest. A Greater Restoration spell cast on you ends this effect.

The mechanics of contact other plane don't really care about the specific contacted individual here or their desires, interests, goals, or personality, they just answer with a specified one word answer unless it would be misleading. The big wild card is simply whether they know something or not resulting in the "unclear" answer. This does not itself let the patron have a conversation with the warlock outside of answering these questions.

So if a PC invokes the free slot to contact their patron a DM can go with the non-interventionist patron answering these specific questions according to the spell and that is it and that seems to be by the book.

A 24 warlock who wants nothing to do with their patron can still use this class ability spell to have the spell prepared and contact other entities and benefit from doing so like a wizard would, they just don't get the extra bonus of free slot or avoiding the save.

It is kind of neat that a safe way to contact an Old One is to be connected with them through a pact.

 

[Necropolitan]

And the player can decide the power-tripping DM can go kick rocks and take half the group with him. If your negotiating style is my way or the highway, you better have an infinite supply of fresh suckers willing to join your table to replace all the ones you alienate.

It's not 'power-tripping' to tell you no.

Any player 'alienated' by not getting their way 100% of the time isn't one anyone should want to play with.

Your game is not so special that I must submit to your every dictatorial whim.

I want to know where you all live that you have such a pool of available players that you can kick them out over refusing to be bullied by their God/patron?

Nobody's said anything like that.

 

[GobHag]

And a GM whose a tyrant is the same thing.