D&D General The Player's Quantum Ogre: Warlock Pacts

[Bae'zel]

A thought as I was typing my last comment. Basic D&D (BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia) clerics do not serve Gods. They serve a belief system that is most often their alignment (Law, Chaos or Neutrality). Immortals (Basics answer to the a Gods) do have churches but clerics are not assumed to be connected with them by default. In Basic, you are a cleric as long as you serve your alignment faithfully.

And somehow, this little world building tidbit is ignored by plenty of people who believe Basic is the best OS version of D&D (judging by the sheer number of clones it has). So if you want a good example of a beloved version of D&D that doesn't shackle clerics to a God for power, look no further than the Known World.

That's super interesting actually. I quite like this as it adds a LOT of freedom in terms of character motivations.

Clerics of Law:

• an authoritarian character who insists on oppressive regimes to maintain strict order ("I AM the Law!")
• an iconoclast who desires to remove all embelleshment, creativity and decoration from civilization as they're all distractions from the True Order
• a follower of Asceticism; denying worldly pleasures, eating only barely what's needed to survive, absintence, sobriety etc and tries to stop organizations or business that indulge in these things

Clerics of Chaos:

• an anarchist who opposes regimes and government, helps the oppressed and downtrodden
• a rebel who does whatever it takes to take down a tyrant, even becoming as cruel and destructive AS the very forces they oppose
• an innovative artist who desires constant change of trends and fashions in all fields

Instead of just "Lawful-Stupid Paladin" and "Chaotic-Stupid murderhobbo"

 

[Remathilis]

We have gone 10 years without them really going into the Gods in detail, its crazy at this point.

For what setting? The world books discuss various deities for Dragonlance, Eberron, Realms and Exandria, and the GH deities get a name drop in the DMG. Most other settings have either no religion (Athas) or no fixed ones (Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer). The only setting that religion is a key aspect of if Theros (befitting it's Greek origin).

To be honest, a deities and demigods book has kinda been a waste. No D&D setting uses Greek or Norse deities. (Well, except Planescape but they use all deities). Aside from a few interlopers to Mystara or Faerun, the vast majority of D&DG are kinda useless. I even question how many DMs use themi in their homebrews rather than make their own.

I at least think most settings can get away with referencing demon lords and archdevils, save for Athas and Eberron at least. Everything existing in the Great Wheel has more or less stopped every setting from having dozens of duplicate lord's of Hell at least.

 

[Scribe]

For what setting? The world books discuss various deities for Dragonlance, Eberron, Realms and Exandria, and the GH deities get a name drop in the DMG. Most other settings have either no religion (Athas) or no fixed ones (Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer). The only setting that religion is a key aspect of if Theros (befitting it's Greek origin).

To be honest, a deities and demigods book has kinda been a waste. No D&D setting uses Greek or Norse deities. (Well, except Planescape but they use all deities). Aside from a few interlopers to Mystara or Faerun, the vast majority of D&DG are kinda useless. I even question how many DMs use themi in their homebrews rather than make their own.

I at least think most settings can get away with referencing demon lords and archdevils, save for Athas and Eberron at least. Everything existing in the Great Wheel has more or less stopped every setting from having dozens of duplicate lord's of Hell at least.

Thats what I mean, its essentially just some name drops. There's no in depth coverage like a Deities and Demigods.

 

[Bae'zel]

For what setting?

I assume homebrew. Unless my players wants to specifically play in Faerun or Krynn, I'd make my own world.

I've used 5e to run a Witcher campaign, Ancient Greek campaign and even a sort of Dark Souls underworld campaign, none of which used any D&D lore whatsoever.

 

[Remathilis]

That's super interesting actually. I quite like this as it adds a LOT of freedom in terms of character motivations.

Clerics of Law:

• an authoritarian character who insists on oppressive regimes to maintain strict order ("I AM the Law!")
• an iconoclast who desires to remove all embelleshment, creativity and decoration from civilization as they're all distractions from the True Order
• a follower of Asceticism; denying worldly pleasures, eating only barely what's needed to survive, absintence, sobriety etc and tries to stop organizations or business that indulge in these things

Clerics of Chaos:

• an anarchist who opposes regimes and government, helps the oppressed and downtrodden
• a rebel who does whatever it takes to take down a tyrant, even becoming as cruel and destructive AS the very forces they oppose
• an innovative artist who desires constant change of trends and fashions in all fields

Instead of just "Lawful-Stupid Paladin" and "Chaotic-Stupid murderhobbo"

Basic D&D uses the Moorcock vision of Law having a good tint and Chaos being evil tinted, but I actually like your idea where two clerics of Law could have widely different interpretations of what Law is and both be right enough to cast clerical magic.

Then again, l love religious schisms, different denominations, mystery cults, and false prophets as elements of story telling and you don't get that if clerics get stripped of their power if the deity is personally auditing the clerics piety and wrongthink.

 

[Maxperson]

1. Every mechanical aspect of a character can be explained with RP hooks or requirements.

This is the case with warlocks, paladins and clerics.

2. No mechanical aspect of a character should be required to have a RP hooks or a requirements.

This is already the case with 5e. No one is required to play a cleric, paladin or warlock.

 

[Remathilis]

Thats what I mean, its essentially just some name drops. There's no in depth coverage like a Deities and Demigods.

D&D got out of the business of supplements for supplements. Maybe if 6e has One Setting to Rule Them All, they can release a religion book that dives into it's pantheon. But not while D&D is supporting seven different settings at once.

 

[Maxperson]

Some sorcerers still get their power from bloodlines, but many now are just exposed to rare phenomenon and get power. Aberrant sorcery assumes you were exposed to weird magic, not that grandad was a mind flayer.

This doesn't really disagree with @Scribe. Whether it's in their blood and bones because of exposure, like Spiderman and his spider bite, or because they were born with it like Cyclops, it's still in their blood and bones.

 

[el-remmen]

I have admittedly not read every single post in this thread very closely, but I did go back and reread the OP and have to wonder when a warlock pact "being a part of the actual fiction of the game" became equated with taking away their powers?

 

[Maxperson]

A thought as I was typing my last comment. Basic D&D (BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia) clerics do not serve Gods. They serve a belief system that is most often their alignment (Law, Chaos or Neutrality). Immortals (Basics answer to the a Gods) do have churches but clerics are not assumed to be connected with them by default. In Basic, you are a cleric as long as you serve your alignment faithfully.

And somehow, this little world building tidbit is ignored by plenty of people who believe Basic is the best OS version of D&D (judging by the sheer number of clones it has). So if you want a good example of a beloved version of D&D that doesn't shackle clerics to a God for power, look no further than the Known World.

My immortals set has clerics attached to specific immortals and benefits that those clerics get. Different immortals offer different bonuses to their clerics. Clerics of Diamond get +2 to turn undead rolls, while clerics of Faunus get the mystical ability to speak with animals. Clerics of the immortal Odin can use spears, javalins and pikes, as well as set spears vs. charge like fighters.