The power of D&D is the power of dreams and imagination, and rules for both!

[Edena_of_Neith]

Um... I don't think there's actually a problem.

I do.

Different gamers like different styles, hence multiple games and multiple versions of the same game. Some find their imaginations blossom under a rigid rules set, many others find exactly the opposite. Why try shoehorn everyone into the same style?

I've addressed this. The Etiquette I suggested must account for different desires and different playing styles.

There is no such thing as a perfect system for all people. Even for all D&D fans. So there will always be arguments. I mean c'mon, it's the internet!

I have addressed this. (All I can suggest is you reread my posts. I am exhausted. I cannot remake those posts.)

But really, this infighting you talk about... is it really as vicious as you suggest? I mean... "people grew fearful they would be assaulted"???

I think so, at least.
I don't know about people being fearful of assault ... since so many people were so eager to make assaults. But I think the young, the future of our Hobby, would be intimidated by what they saw, yes.
Certainly, the energy that went into the fighting, could have been put into recruiting the young. That would have been better.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Some valid points.

Some not so valid.

Oddly my group and I have absolutely no problems with our imaginations. We all, also, refuse to argue over anything pertaining to rules, or what anyone outside of our gaming circle thinks about how we do things.
So honestly, this has little do do with us.

Hey, cheers to you and your group! : )

But you seem to believe the hobby is dying in some way, or at least imagination are becoming mired in the 'chaos of free-form rules'. Unfortunately this will be different from group to group, person to person.

Yes, I believe it is dying.
Yes, I believe a culture evolved that discouraged creativity, was anaethema to the imagination.
I do *not* blame free-form rules. I blame what free-form rules *led* to. That did not have to happen. We could have *had* free-form rules, without the subsequent downward spiral. What was needed, was a core etiquette.

To be perfectly honest, there are societal problems draining the minds of today's youth that have absolutely nothing to do with gaming at all, but that's a much larger, much broader thesis that could be gone into here.

Indeed, that is a much larger subject, and within the rules of ENWorld I cannot discuss most of it.

I do not believe societal problems draining the minds of youths, was a determining factor in preventing the young from joining the Hobby. Certainly, there were large issues (the internet, internet games, card games, computer games, and various other things) but I believe we could have brought the young into our Hobby. Yes, I do. It happened en mass in the 1960s and 1970s, even the 1980s. We could make it happen again.

I wish you luck in your quest. We're doing fine on this end though.

Again, cheers to you and your group. : )

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Edna,

While your post is nice and you seem to have thought a lot about this. I think you are wrong about this subject.

Hey there, Jester. I remember you. Cheers there, sir. : )
And, each to their own opinions. I hardly expect the majority of people here to agree with me. Nor do I demand such agreement.
I merely espouse my opinions, and hope people will read them.

The ability to alter a game as you see fit for your gaming group has little to do with the bitterness of the infinite flame wars that erupt here all the time.

LOL. Well put. Infinite Flame Wars. That about covers it. (Fortunately, Morrus and the Admins work their guts out, trying to keep the peace. Kudos to them.)
I just happen to think that the ability to alter the game, set off the chain reaction that led to the Infinite Flame Wars. I have described this.
It started off as an innocent little thing, that slowly escalated and mutated into something else, something undesirable.

Remember the IR? That started off as a question. It led to a discussion. That led to a back and forth debate. That led to an impromptu game. And that led to a game that went on for 2 months straight (without a pause.)
Something like that, except the result wasn't very fun - I'm not saying the IR was all fun either, but certainly the Infinite Flame War isn't much fun!

I have seen flame wars just as caustic in magic the gathering forums where, the rules are just as strict as chess. I have also seem pretty bad hateful arguments on RTS computer game forums, and those rules are enforced by machines.

People seem to be naturally argumentative, yes. I would never debate THAT one.
And yet ... Chess players (often known for their emotions) manage their tournaments and etiquette, and chess is a popular game. It is not dying. Why can't we do this with our game? I say we can. We can do it.
So people are argumentative. So what? Big deal.
We can create a core etiquette that accounts for that, protects DM and players alike, becomes a respected institution that people refuse to break. We can do that.

The main reason you see this stuff is the nature of anonymity. People will write things to people on forums that they would never say to a person on the street. Mainy because the guy on the street has a chance to inflict bodily injury to the speaker.

I concede that the Internet is a riotous place. No debate from me on that!
However, the anger and hatred I speak of, I've seen personally. I watched it develop personally, from little minor discussions, to serious arguments, to large fights, to broken friendships and broken groups, to the collapse of entire gaming clubs.
I swear this is the truth. I wish it weren't so. I really wish I hadn't had the ... (looks ill) privilege ... of seeing these things happen within the Hobby.

When I played D&D in high school we played pretty much RAW, no one I knew had house rules other than for some magic items they invented. But we knew better to assume that those magic items would be accepted if we played a pickup game at a con. We were able to realize that house rules are for the group and core rules was for when we played with strangers.

Us, too, in the groups I played in when I was young. Same assumptions.
All the groups I was in, shattered and died. The demands of adulthood took most of my friends from the Hobby, the growing anger and hostility - the slowly growing institution of intolerance and ... denouncing others - took most of the rest. A very few of these people, are still my friends today. I only wish I ... could have kept those friendships.

Also D&D is not the only game that has tons of house rules. The number of varioutions of the Free parking space in Monopoly that I have seen is in the double digits. I have seen people rewrite Axis and Allies to make it "more historically correct"! These house rules don't hurt the games because people know they are "HOUSE" rules.

The etiquette of Axis and Allies protected that game, in all of the games I was in. We never had any trouble within that game.
The etiquette of RISK was weaker, and I saw two fist-fights in my many games. A lot of arguments (and the people I know preferred Axis and Allies over RISK, before very long ...)
Monopoly? I only played it as a child. But I remember it only as a fun game.

I agree with the huge amount of research that has been done by wizards to determin what makes people play D&D, what makes them stop playing D&D, and what people want out of D&D.

I don't have any knowledge of what Wizards thinks people want out of D&D but judging from the rules of 4E here is what I think they are betting on.

0) D&D needs to appeal to more people.
1) D&D can't live without DM's so the DM workload had better be minimized as to not intimidate folks for even trying.
2) Every choice that needs to be made should have a meaningful impact on your character.
3) There should be no bad choices that reward rules lawyers over people who just want to 'have fun'
4) Make the available character races the more interesting.

(I added the last one because so far the 2 new players I have introduced to D&D have opted for the Tiefling, and the Dragonborn. So I think they hit that one on the head.)

What can I say? Those look like good ideas. It sounds like WOTC tried very hard to do some through research.
Still, what can we do without the young? If we cannot convince the young to join in, where are we?
And I do not think the young are coming. They *should* be coming. They *came* before. Our Hobby appeals to something no other game does, or can - the limitless capacity to dream and imagine. But the young aren't coming.

If 4E can do these things and many more things that I am sure I did not include in the list, then I think D&D is here to stay. If not it is WarCraft from here on.

I do not know much about WarCraft. It doesn't sound like a game that appeals as much to dreamers and those who want to imagine.

If 4E brings in the young, then it will be a Renaissance for our Hobby, and hopefully this will happen. I can always hope. We'll come back into a new age of fun, of magic, of good things. I want that. I want that very much.

p.s. The RPGA already has some pretty strict rules that handles most all organized play.

They do indeed. The RPGA probably has the strongest etiquette currently in use in D&D.
But the RPGA is limited by their 4 hour / 6 hour intervals (and what can they do? They have no choice on that.) This puts a serious crimp indeed in what it is, they are trying to accomplish. It's not their fault, but there it is.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(weary look)

I think I've written somewhere around 40 pages worth of text on this subject, in my posts above.
I just don't have the strength for any more. If I cannot respond to your posts, my apologies, but I'm worn out.

I am not expecting many to agree with me. I expect many of you to vehemently disagree.
Please go ahead and vent your disagreement. I will read what you have to say!

But I cannot guarantee a reply. I am just worn out here.
I've had all this - what I've said above - on my chest for a long time (years, really) and wanted to unload it, in a dignified and peaceful, courteous and conversational way.
I've done the best I could, to do that.

I will reply if I can, to any replies made ... but I've said what it was, I had to say, and at this point can only reaffirm that, or simply discuss the case I've presented.

Cheers to all of you, and to all in our Hobby.

Yours Truly
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(off-topic)

I want to give some accolades to Michael, the person who sacrificed his own economics to help keep ENWorld going.
I am sorry about your situation. I apologize I could not be there for you.

 

[RFisher]

Have you ever noticed that in Chess, a rigid etiquette is followed? There is a rigid set of rules, and a rigid set of behavioral etiquette as well. This is seen in chess tournaments. I would note that Chess is a very popular game, was popular before D&D arose, and is still popular today.

I’ve seen the etiquette. In tournaments. Never in casual games. Even when both players know the etiquette. Heck, I’ve seen my share of casual tournaments that didn’t take the etiquette too seriously.

The only etiquette we RPGamers need is the normal etiquette that applies to dealing with other people.

The D&D community balkanized into a thousand groups, each convinced it was right and everyone else was wrong, more time was spent arguing, fighting, and denoucing that playing, and unless you toed the line in your group, you were out of your group.

O_O

Seriously?

I could believe this if I took the rhetoric at face value. When it comes to actually breaking out pencils and dice, however, I’ve seen very little of it. The few that actually take hard-line positions about a game soon find themselves without a group.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I’ve seen the etiquette. In tournaments. Never in casual games. Even when both players know the etiquette. Heck, I’ve seen my share of casual tournaments that didn’t take the etiquette too seriously.

The only etiquette we RPGamers need is the normal etiquette that applies to dealing with other people.

Well, ok, each to their own opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, obviously.
I just think that an etiquette - I cannot describe what, exactly, just in generality - is needed, has always been needed, for our Hobby.

In casual chess games? I've seen the etiquette break down, yes. Usually, the result was casual. Sometimes, it was more serious. But chess players always knew how the pieces moved, and I rarely saw arguments over such things.

Too bad, we couldn't have been more congenial in our Hobby! And what do I mean, EXACTLY, by that? I mean:

You are playing a 40th level wizard with 10 Shapechanges memorized? Cheers!
You are playing a 1st level wizard with 1 magic missile readied? Cheers!
You are playing a fighter with a 30 strength (2E 30 strength.) of 50th level? Cheers!
You are playing a fighter of 1st level with a sword? Cheers.
Your rogue can instantly stab dead just about anything with that feat? Cheers!
Your druid can waste just about anything with her special polymorph? Cheers!
etc. That kind of thing, as opposed to ... you know, the opposite ... that *other* reaction we all know so well.

O_O
Seriously?
I could believe this if I took the rhetoric at face value. When it comes to actually breaking out pencils and dice, however, I’ve seen very little of it. The few that actually take hard-line positions about a game soon find themselves without a group.

[/QUOTE]

I would not have said it, if I did not believe it with all my heart. I saw it happen, and I saw it happen personally. I saw it happen personally, over and over and over. So, I have made the conclusions I've made, which I laid out in detail above.
I finally concluded, as written above, that the whole trouble started due to something very small, very innocuous, something that seemed totally innocent and harmless at that time (the 1970s.) The lack of a basic etiquette regarding how seriously to take the rules, and even more ... how seriously to take any changes in the rules, and how to handle such changes with due respect and gravity.
It seemed so utterly innocent and non-harmful back then, such a natural and normal thing, such a necessary thing, really ... to me and everyone else. I would never have imagined it would have led to ... what happened. Yet it did. Or, at least, that is my take.
Thus I make the point that, from my point of view, if we are granted a second chance we should create a strong and emcompassing etiquette concerning how to approach the rules, how seriously to take any changes in rules, and otherwise an etiquette concerning the basic approach to the conception of roleplaying. Establish a strong etiquette, I believe, and we can ensure that what has happened, never happens again.

You state that you do not see, what I have seen. Fair enough. Each to their own perspection. Each to their own thinking.
But I stand firmly by my perspections and memories.
Which, once more, in simplistic terms (see my posts above for the complicated version) is written out as:

Lack of etiquette leads to: feeling of freedom to change rules
Feeling of freedom to change rules leads to: disrespect for rules
Disrespect for rules leads to: scorn of many rules, disgust and adversion to many rules
Scorn, disgust, adversion to rules leads to: disrespect for players using said rules
Disrespect of players using said rules leads to: disrespect of other players in general
Disrespect of other players in general leads to: institutionalized disrespect for other players (in other words, people start doing it automatically)
Institutionalized disrespect for other players leads to: dissing of other players
Dissing of other players leads to: fighting between players
Fighting between players leads to: broken friendships, game abandoned, groups break up, friendly atmosphere - atmosphere of fun - collapses
Collapse leads to a lot of players angry, hurt, sad, all the fun gone, culture of intolerance, anger, and hatred
Culture of intolerance, anger, and hatred leads to ...

The young see this, and refuse to join the Hobby. And that leads to ...

The death of Dungeons and Dragons.

Nothing like a tiny one inch snowball, started down a mountainside, leading to an avalanche that buries the town of thousands of people below.

Time to go back and set the core etiquette right.

Did the Hobby blow itself to smithereens? If you read what I read, you know I believe it did.

However, by all means, draw your own conclusions here! I merely offer opinions, not facts. All I can do is hope my opinions are helpful to someone.
And hope that there *is* hope, for a permanent future for our Hobby!

 

[El Mahdi]

"Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"

Live long and prosper y'all!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

"Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"

Live long and prosper y'all!

No, not infinite diversity.
But you could have *some* diversity. Start with the basic etiquette, and add etiquettes (such as campaign settings - we already have many of them) to supplement and expand that basic etiquette.

Then, you will have options.

 

[RFisher]

Lack of etiquette leads to: feeling of freedom to change rules

The times I have seen problems in the hobby it has been when a lack of (simple everyday) etiquette put rules (or any other aspect of the game) above people. Once people mature enough to put people first, the problems fade away.

As for rules: With any game, the rules are free to be changed by consensus of the participants. It’s done in friendly games of Monopoly. It’s done by chess federations. It’s done by professional sports leagues. I submit that discouraging freedom to change the rules is both unrealistic and not a solution to anything.