The power of D&D is the power of dreams and imagination, and rules for both!

[knightofround]

I don't think D&D has been dying at all amongst the "younger generation". The best thing about 3.0/3.5 was the OGL; an online SRD (and pirated PDFs) meant that there was $0 cost of entry to the game. Compare $15 for a month of WoW with sweet graphics vs. $90 and a buttload of reading for the 3 core rulebooks and dice. Then you have to find 3+ people who can get together for substantial chunks of time. Then you have to find someone willing to put in even more time to DM. Whereas in WoW, you install it, you join your friends' server, they twink you out and you're good to go, whether it be for a half hour or 10 hours.

I think the only reason D&D isn't growing much faster is because of the nature of technology. Yes you can be imaginative with D&D but you can do alot of crazy stuff with computers right now, so there's not as much need for a paper-and-pencil-and-mind world. I believe that in this sense D&D is evolving into stuff like Neverwinter Nights and MMOs, rather than being destroyed by them.

I would disagree with your opinion that rules-debate discourages young people from playing the game. I think conflict is good; conflict is what breeds change and reinvigoration. I mean look at the OGL and the explosion of creative content, never before seen in "genial" days, that occured around the same time as the rule conflicting. And I think the "young" as you call them, are actually more attracted to the idea of game balance and rules lawyering than the old guard's "oh lets just allow everyone to be as whimsical as they like" =) The call for increased ettiquete kinda puzzles me as well, because we allll know how much young people love ettiquete over action and rebellion =)

So I guess its my opinion that the core rules aren't a problem perceived decline....I think it's a simple matter of entertainment evolution. And as for the spitballing on message boards, well EVERY online community is like that. Actually I think having such MBs helps the games existence, because they allow people to know more about the game before diving into it. Just because ENWorld is losing ad revenue doesn't mean that everything is going to hell in a handbasket imho ^_^

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

By their very nature, rules have to be incomplete.

In D&D, that's very true. Or, I think so.

There's no way to predict every possible situation.

I agree.

Rules need to be general, and then interpreted for specific situations as they arise. Otherwise, you get bogged down in the details.

It varies on the rule, I think. Some can be specific, some have to be general.

Also, institutionalizing something that's so informal is ill advised.

You disagree, then, with my thinking. Which is fine. We simply disagree. Cheers!
I once thought (wry look) the same way. It is with much chagrin that I say I think the rules must be formalized. I speak with chagrin when I say the imagination is encouraged by solid rules where you are not allowed to change them. I would never have imagined I would be writing these words, back in my early days of D&D, back in 1980.

D&D is intended to be a game played among friends. Setting boundaries is good (like disallowing a certain class or certain splatbook(s) in your campaign), but the players should be able to do whatever they want inside of those boundaries. Play with the right people (ie friends) and etiquette will mostly take care of itself. Overly strict rules and etiquette edge too close to browbeating. I wouldn't enjoy a game like that.

It is intended to be a game among friends.
Boundaries can be good ... or bad ... yes, the players should be able to do what they want. (In short, I am saying that an etiquette of strong rules and strong respect for rules, is not the antithesis of freedom for the players - it *supports* greater freedom for the players. A paradox, I know. But this paradox, this strangeness, shows itself for truth in actual play.)
I would not enjoy browbeating either. The etiquette I am suggesting, would not include browbeating. Indeed, browbeating is one of the problems within the current culture of intolerance and anger.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It confuses me how you seem to chronicle the respect for others as a branch from the respect of rules. Aren’t rules an implication of humanities lack of respect for others?
I fail to see how a further regimentation of game-play could improve what is inherently social circumstance.

It's hard to quantify this, but I do believe that respect for the rules is crucial. It is the crux of the matter. The lack of respect for rules, becoming widespread in early D&D, led directly to the culture of intolerance, anger, and hatred that exists today. Yes, I believe that.
You cannot change human nature. But you can set up an etiquette, and require respect for that etiquette. In the case of D&D, the etiquette of respect for the rules. The rules themselves can be ... what they are, even changed a lot ... but the respect for the concept of rules, that rules are important, that rules should be respected, that rules should be changed only for very important reasons and/or legitimate reasons, should be a reality.

I worry about individuals that seem to think the genesis of an argument is the reason for varying types of malfeasant behavior.

People are people. They are not perfect, anymore than D&D is perfect. What more really need be said?
I am not perfect. You are not perfect. We are not perfect. So it is! : )

It seems to me the next logical step in your thinking would be enforcement? Should there be gaming police to facilitate player versus dungeon master relations? Perhaps a judge and jury to illuminate the rules of the ever increasing codification of our ‘gamist’ social structure?

The Gaming Police? Don't we already have those? LOL.
No, no Gaming Police Force is the answer. Heck, the Gaming Army with the Nuclear Weapons is useless.
Gamers must police themselves. Truism if ever there was one.
Etiquette is about that. Etiquette establishes an Institution. An Institution, is a set way of thinking and doing things. An Institution of civility, courtesy, mutual respect between Gamers, and respect for the rules (and altered rules, when they need to be altered), that is what is needed.
The current institution of intolerance, anger, and hatred, has to go. It has to be buried and forgotten. It has to be squelched without mercy, crushed underfoot, stomped deep into the primordial muck.

Alright…that’s a bit silly.

The concept of the Gaming Police? Yep. Quite silly. In my opinion!

But, again, I really fail to see any real connection in your said experiences with your listed theory.

I have tried to explain the connection several times above.
What started as something innocent, something seemingly harmless, turned into a disaster, much like a small snowball thrown at the top of a mountain producing an avalanche that buries a city of tens of thousands at the bottom.
The designers in the beginning, explorers and experimenters, created rules and institutionalized the idea of changing the rules at will.
The seemingly harmless notion of changing the rules at will, turned into something else. Here is the chain again:

Ok to change rules - Ok to sneer at rules
Ok to sneer at rules - Ok to think really badly of rules
Ok to think really badly of rules - ok to question judgement of player using rules
Ok to question judgement of player - Ok to question player in general
Ok to question player in general - Ok to think badly of player
Ok to think badly of player - Ok to denounce player
Ok to denounce player - Ok for there to be intolerance
Ok for there to be intolerance - Ok for there to be anger
Ok for there to be anger and intolerance - Ok for there to be hatred
Ok for there to be hatred - Young do not enter Hobby
Young do not enter Hobby - Hobby shrinks
Hobby shrinks - Hobby dies

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I have two nephews that are just now starting to play D&D (4e). Both were interested in playing because of familiarity of the name, but neither had any friends who played.
Both have played computer RPGs before, and all of their friends do to. They also play 1st person shooters and RTS's.
MMO's and other online games have MUCH more abusive players than have ever been seen in a D&D forum. Racial, gender, and sexual orientation slurs and curses are far more common in the other computer games (less so in MMOs with subscriptions but very very common in games like Counter-Strike where I hear someone spouting pure hate at least once a week when I played.)
So since these computer games have a more abusive culture we can't point to that as the root cause of roleplaying games decline. What you have to do is see where they are different, and the biggest difference is that D&D is hard to schedule.

But Jester, computers provide some of the etiquette themselves, just by sitting there, and the game simply being there ready to play.
In tabletop D&D, the players are stuck with the *entire* burden of policing themselves, conforming to etiquette, making all the decisions on rules, everything.

You are quite right, that D&D has difficult logistics. I agree. The demands of the Real World make it even harder.
However, as teenagers we surmounted that (fairly incredible) difficulty. Teenagers should be able to continue to do so.
We must surmount this threat to our hobby, this institution of intolerance I have spoken of, establish an etiquette to prevent it from reoccurring.

The biggest problem with all role playing games is the huge amount of contigous hours one must devote to the game to have the most amount of fun. Also the logistics alone to get 6 people together for 4-6 hours at a given time is pretty is pretty tough.

I agree, it's onerous. I don't think it's the biggest problem (I think the institution of intolerance is) but it sure is a big one.

Remember that they have school, and perhaps music lessons, and more homework than we had at that age. It is a lot easier to go online for an hour or two from the comfort of their own homes and play a MMO than get together for D&D.

If what you are saying is true, the Hobby is doomed. If the Young CANNOT overcome the hurtles of Real World demands, it is over.
I can only hope you are wrong (you may very well be right ...)

I think it is fair to say that if asked what type of game is easier to schedule, everyone can agree computer or console games win hands down.

Absolutely. Hands down.
But ...
Only D&D and other roleplaying games, can delve into that infinite source of strength called imagination and the power of dreams. It is a unique strength of roleplaying games, that those computer games and internet games and card games, can never duplicate.
If our Hobby can continue to gain support from those who wish to dream, those who wish to imagine, then there is an endless source of power for the Hobby. An endless strength for Dungeons and Dragons.
Unless we let that counterforce, the current institutionalized anger, hatred, and intolerance, overwhelm dreams and imagination, and destroy our Hobby. I would not see it happen.

And if you want to talk about player hate, and abuse the computer games have the market cornered on that one too (in real time, and often using voice chat).

Oh, I know how bad that is. It is very bad indeed. But again, computers and computer games have their own etiquette, much of which relies on the fact they are simply THERE, period. Whereas, as you pointed out, it is quite difficult to get a face-to-face D&D game together. That requires a lot of work. The computer is ready to go - one merely need turn the thing on.

This is where I think DDI's virtual table may just help boost playing of D&D. Which is why I really want them to finish it and get it working so they can get my $10 a month (Yearly subscription of course).

(considers this) Yes. I would agree. The etiquette I think the Hobby needs, will still be needed, but I believe the merging of Cyberspace with the Hobby will help it out greatly.

JesterOC[/QUOTE]

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Your post confuses me, because I just don't see these problems, this may well have something to do with the fact that I'm 26 and have only been roleplaying since I was 19.

(solemnly)

There was a time, Ginnel, when D&D was played at my Middle School, back around 1980. Our Hobby was a household name, and it's products were to be found in nearly every public venue. We were so well known that great public controversy existed about us.
Today, I doubt many Middle School students have ever even heard the words Dungeons and Dragons, much less played the game (based on my experiences with questions to the younger crowd.) Same for High School students.
Today, we do not even have a Magazine to represent us, much less much exposure in public venues. We are merely a memory, a ghost out of the past, to vast numbers of people who were once with us.

I would have it back the way it was. I have tried to present my case for why our Hobby fell like it did. I conceded all the other reasons first (many of them, many very serious indeed) then explained that this, too (the intolerance, anger) was a problem.

This vitriol people let loose over differing playstyles is not because the rules aren't detailed enough, you could try and describe everything possible in the most minute detail and have rules for stuff not thought of and people will still attack it and be in conflict, this is because of anominity on the internet, and the fact that people like to be correct, some people more so that others.

Uh ... actually, yes. Exactly. It is ok, as it were, for one Gamer to say to another: You are wrong! I am right! This is how it is! You don't know what you are talking about!
It has become ok, acceptable behavior, for Gamers to say things a lot worse than that, to each other.
Morrus had to ban the Edition Wars threads, for example, on this messageboard, because it *had become* ok for Gamers to say nasty things to each other.
This kind of thing ... it is destroying the Hobby, killing it. It will see it dead and gone. It destroyed TSR, it destroyed 3rd edition, it destroyed Dragon and Dungeon, it will destroy everything that remains. It must be stopped.
If it is not stopped, the Young will not avail themselves of the Hobby (why would they? Why step into a hotbed of hatred and anger?) Then, the Hobby will die.

Part of the problem with getting new people into this Hobby is part of the problem why Cricket is relatively low in popularity compared to Football, now there is a ton of difference between the marketing of both sports and how it is portrayed in the media, but it also comes down to the simple fact that its much easier to pick up a football and have a kick about than it is to organise people to get together with all the right equipment for a quick game of cricket.

I appreciate that many people believe incorrect marketing strategy is the primary reason for the decline in the Hobby. I concede it is a reason. But I do not believe it is the main reason. The intolerance is the main reason, in my opinion.

D&D requires someone to work at the DM role, it needs space, it needs a multitude of players usually the same ones week in week out, it needs a number of physical products (dice, books, paper, pencils) then there's also problems of time commitment needed before even being able to play (in DM prep/player set up) and then needed for the play sessions themselves, social acceptability of the hobby, marketing and promotion of it with all of these I can clearly see why this hobby isn't the most popular in the world.

Yes! It takes a lot of work! Effort! Time!
And so, shouldn't it's etiquette, be taken as seriously as possible? People's time is important. Their efforts are important. Their friendship is important. The DM's sacrifice in being DM is important.
Throw that all way in arguments or bickering over rules??? No way. Not with me. Not with anyone! That kind of disrespect for etiquette ... not for me! Or you. Or anyone, hopefully!

Yet, there it is. Everyone has seen the arguments, the bickering, the anger, the whole Knights of the Dinner Table experience (minus the humor.)
And that, is not respect for the etiquette. That kind of thing, is not to be tolerated.
We should respect the game, and each other, in courteous and dignified etiquette. That's how it should be. That's how it should always have been.

Can it grow in popularity sure, will a hard coded defined ettiqutte and a longer list of rules help? I can't see how this will help. Your use of the word ettiquette also confuses, when it seems what you actually mean is politeness and respect, something any civilised human being should have.

Of course! It is obvious. It is a truism. A truism!!
Politeness pays. Politeness and courtesy, pay!! Politeness and courtesy, that's how to be! Politeness and courtesy, that's where it's at! That's the whole kit and kabottle!!!
Let politeness and courtesy, be the core of the etiquette. You wonder what I mean by etiquette? Politeness! Courtesy! Respect! For the rules! For other players! Online! I cannot say it enough. I'd bang on the keyboard if it helped. Politeness! Courtesy! Respect! The core of the Hobby! The way it should be! Politeness! Courtesy! Respect! Over and over and over!

On dreaming and peter and wendy, hmm, my imagination and my ability to roleplay have increased with time and the better games I have played in have always been ran by an older person (around 4-20 years older) I can't say I've become more adolescent as I've got older.

Why should you have? You grew older. As you did, you started having older dreams and imagination. (grins)
The ability to dream, the imagination, don't get worse with age. They become seasoned (like a well seasoned steak!) They don't have to wither, and they shouldn't wither. Obviously, your dreams and your imagination, are doing quite well, audacious and wide and encompassing. The way it should be.
Why do I keep smashing at the Institution of Intolerance, Anger, and Hate? It kills the imagination! It destroys the desire to dream! It is frightening, intimidating, bullying. It hurts, it scares, it suppresses!
You do not dare dream or imagine, if people would hurt you for it!!
And thus, the Young - who wish to dream and imagine, and have fun doing so - are driven off. That is WHY this culture we have evolved, this negative culture of intolerance, drives off the Young. It kills the imagination, stops the dreamer.

Let us stop the culture of intolerance. Kill that culture. Bury it.
Bring back the imagination and dreams, and in so doing, bring back our Hobby, take it back from those who would sabotage it with their hate and anger!

Its clear that you care passionately about the hobby and have had some bad experiences as well, but I don't think you can attribute your experience to the hobby itself, myself and other posters have stated that the problems you have mentioned don't exist for us, but I can see how these problems may develop from people I know who have conflicting personalities.

I do care about the Hobby, yes.
I have had the bad experiences, and seen worse.
It is not D&D which is to blame. D&D is a great game. I would vouch that D&D is still the best roleplaying game of them all.
But it had a flaw, and that flaw together with human nature created a problem. Let's fix the problem, and enjoy ourselves in the game. : )

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I don't think D&D has been dying at all amongst the "younger generation". The best thing about 3.0/3.5 was the OGL; an online SRD (and pirated PDFs) meant that there was $0 cost of entry to the game. Compare $15 for a month of WoW with sweet graphics vs. $90 and a buttload of reading for the 3 core rulebooks and dice. Then you have to find 3+ people who can get together for substantial chunks of time. Then you have to find someone willing to put in even more time to DM. Whereas in WoW, you install it, you join your friends' server, they twink you out and you're good to go, whether it be for a half hour or 10 hours.

I acknowledge that computer games, internet games, have been a serious blow for the Hobby. World of Warcraft, in particular, seems to have struck a heavy blow against Dungeons and Dragons, based on the words of the D&D Brand Manager himself.
I acknowledge the difficulties of getting a group together (much less maintaining a regular schedule of play.)

Heck, I'll go further, and acknowledge that these difficulties were so truly tremendous that you have to wonder (I do) how Dungeons and Dragons ever got off the ground in the first place. How Dragon ever got started. How TSR ever got started. I mean, they were swimming against a very powerful current of one very big river.
And yet, they did it, and D&D became a household name (as later, the Magic card game did, and as World of Warcraft is now.)

Now, you said you did not think D&D was dying among the Younger Generation. Are you saying that you think D&D simply never caught on with the Younger Generation, so there are no Young for the Hobby to lose? Or that those Young who play in the Hobby, are sticking with us?
The first case is bleak indeed: there is no future without the Young. The second case? We need a lot more Young. We need to yank them back from all those computer games.

And we have a tool for doing that, which is more powerful than all the computer games and internet games and card games put together: the desire to dream, the will to imagine, the joy of imagining.
Only roleplaying games, like Dungeons and Dragons, can fully take advantage of these things, allow people to express dreams and imagination in the way they do, in roleplaying games.
The will to dream, the desire to imagine, is NOT a passing fad! It is not the Game of the Day. It is not the desire of the moment. It is a permanent feature, around as long as people are around.
If we can once more inspire people to come dream, come imagine, in our Hobby, our Hobby will last. It will be sustained by something that cannot be stopped, cannot be contained, something with infinite power, something with infinite supply. (It's like that Krell machine: it can never be shut down, never be turned off.)
OUR hobby is the one with the future, the infinite future, the future based on dreams and imagination. As powerful as those computer games seem, what could they possibly have on that? They are minor asides, compared to the thing that powers our Hobby.

Now, that is not optimism, it's the truth. But if people want to let a bunch of petty intolerance and anger drown out the dreaming, the imagination, long enough to kill the Hobby, then I cannot stop them.

I think the only reason D&D isn't growing much faster is because of the nature of technology. Yes you can be imaginative with D&D but you can do alot of crazy stuff with computers right now, so there's not as much need for a paper-and-pencil-and-mind world. I believe that in this sense D&D is evolving into stuff like Neverwinter Nights and MMOs, rather than being destroyed by them.

I hope it evolves into Virtual Reality one day (when VR is truly available.)

I would disagree with your opinion that rules-debate discourages young people from playing the game.

Rules-debate is not harmful. IF it is taken to denunciation of other people, then it is harmful. That is what happened.
It wasn't harmful to say 'I think that should be a bonus of +2, not +4'
It was when people said 'That player is a munchkin, because he goes with the +4' then it became harmful.

I think conflict is good; conflict is what breeds change and reinvigoration. I mean look at the OGL and the explosion of creative content, never before seen in "genial" days, that occured around the same time as the rule conflicting.

(sighs)

That's a big philosophical one, one worthy of entire books worth of posts, and not just a single thread.
I cannot really address it. My regrets and apologies.
All I can say is: Conflict isn't good if it DESTROYS the product being fought over (a radioactive garbage dump, for example, isn't the kind of real estate you'd want to live in.)

And I think the "young" as you call them, are actually more attracted to the idea of game balance and rules lawyering than the old guard's "oh lets just allow everyone to be as whimsical as they like" =) The call for increased ettiquete kinda puzzles me as well, because we allll know how much young people love ettiquete over action and rebellion =)

(chuckles)

The Young. Ah yes. The Rebels. Uproar Personified. (Etiquette? You mean, as in: I KILL THE MONSTER, AND I PULP IT. I PULP IT, DO YOU HEAR ME? I PULP IT. AND THEN I PULP IT SOME MORE. AND TAKE EVERY LAST COPPER PIECE. DO YOU HEAR ME? EVERY LAST, LAST COPPER PIECE. MINE, MINE, MINE!!! (Yes, I DMed for that player ...))
I must wonder if the word Etiquette is not the antithesis of the word Young?
And have I not myself stated that the Young were the source of our Hobby? It was us. We were the Young. We were those players, created those tables.

It is a paradox. The Young are the future, I am saying etiquette is crucial, but the Young and etiquette do not mix very well, to understate things.

I don't have the answer to the paradox. If I did, I would let you know. If I did, they'd probably make me CEO of WOTC. LOL. The CEO of Hasbro. I'd have my own following. Be bigger than Mr. Gygax himself.

All I can say is that, games like Chess, Axis and Allies, RISK, and yes D&D are played by the Young, and with success. I'll never know exactly *how* they do it, but they do it.

But for older players, etiquette is relevant. Etiquette is important. Etiquette is crucial. I doubt anyone would dispute that (only dispute, what kind of etiquette, is needed.)

So I guess its my opinion that the core rules aren't a problem perceived decline....I think it's a simple matter of entertainment evolution. And as for the spitballing on message boards, well EVERY online community is like that. Actually I think having such MBs helps the games existence, because they allow people to know more about the game before diving into it. Just because ENWorld is losing ad revenue doesn't mean that everything is going to hell in a handbasket imho ^_^

I just hope that evolution includes a future D&D. Yes, I do think ENWorld's scarcity of money (which Morrus had) was a bad sign.
Yes, the internet is uproarous (to greatly understate the situation.)
I base my observations mostly upon what I saw in actual gaming, and only in small amount on what I've read online. The most important things I've seen online were news related, not the nature of actual posts.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Done.

 

[knightofround]

I acknowledge that computer games, internet games, have been a serious blow for the Hobby.

Again, I wouldn't say that it's been bad for the hobby. I believe it has been a force of GOOD; these evolutions of D&D reach markets that D&D itself would never touch. By experience a little of something like WoW it opens them up to something more like D&D. It's like free advertising.

Now, you said you did not think D&D was dying among the Younger Generation. Are you saying that you think D&D simply never caught on with the Younger Generation, so there are no Young for the Hobby to lose? Or that those Young who play in the Hobby, are sticking with us?

I'm saying that there's plenty of new blood in D&D. I'm 21, when I was in middle school, D&D was still "household name"; it was more popular than all other forms of in-person gaming combined. Same went in high school. Now in college, there's a RPG club with about 20 people in it, but there is no such thing for any other gaming system. I started playing D&D at the tail-end of 2nd edition, and I have actually seen D&D's popularity increase in my demographic over time. The biggest jump of which happened at 3rd edition, with the OGL; the online SRD and piratable PDFs actually made it so lots of new young people could get into the hobby. And once they got into it, they become new customers.

Only roleplaying games, like Dungeons and Dragons, can fully take advantage of these things, allow people to express dreams and imagination in the way they do, in roleplaying games.

I would disagree with this. Tabletop RPGs do not have a monopoly on creativity. There are ideas that I can express better in fiction or poetry, or sensations I can experience more strongly through a video game than a game of D&D. It doesn't make D&D any stronger or weaker, it just means that its different.

OUR hobby is the one with the future, the infinite future, the future based on dreams and imagination. As powerful as those computer games seem, what could they possibly have on that? They are minor asides, compared to the thing that powers our Hobby.

I think this glorifying D&D too much. I think D&D is great (otherwise I wouldn't be here) and I think its had a great influence upon all types of gaming today. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its going to best thing for all time. I mean you can look at an epic poem like the Illiad 2000 years ago and say "wow this awesome, no one has ever before done something this creative, this is the future as we know it". However, good luck trying to find people writing epic poems today. We have movies about the Illiad, and works inspired by the Illiad, and in some circles its still a recognized name. In short, evolutions upon the form. But again, it's not the end, its just an influential part of a continuum.

Rules-debate is not harmful. IF it is taken to denunciation of other people, then it is harmful. That is what happened.
It wasn't harmful to say 'I think that should be a bonus of +2, not +4'
It was when people said 'That player is a munchkin, because he goes with the +4' then it became harmful.

I guess I don't see how this is different than musical criticism, or movie criticism, or anything else for that matter. I think your issue has more to deal with the nature of society than the game itself. I don't see how some change in the core rules would change human behavior on such a macro scale =P

 

[RFisher]

I think the only reason D&D isn't growing much faster is because of the nature of technology. Yes you can be imaginative with D&D but you can do alot of crazy stuff with computers right now, so there's not as much need for a paper-and-pencil-and-mind world.

I might believe this if my son didn’t so enthusiastically turn off the TV and the PlayStation and the computer when offered a chance to play marbles.

Or if the Harry Potter books didn’t sell so well.

Technology gives you more options, but it doesn’t always make the former options obsolete.

(Technology can also enhance the older options without evolving them into something different. I looked up the rules and history of marbles on the web. I read several of the Harry Potter books on my eBook device. I used my iPhone the other day to look up spells in the SRD since I’d forgotten my Pocket PHB. But that’s a different tangent.)

Ok to change rules - Ok to sneer at rules
Ok to sneer at rules - Ok to think really badly of rules
Ok to think really badly of rules - ok to question judgement of player using rules
Ok to question judgement of player - Ok to question player in general
Ok to question player in general - Ok to think badly of player
Ok to think badly of player - Ok to denounce player
Ok to denounce player - Ok for there to be intolerance
Ok for there to be intolerance - Ok for there to be anger
Ok for there to be anger and intolerance - Ok for there to be hatred
Ok for there to be hatred - Young do not enter Hobby
Young do not enter Hobby - Hobby shrinks
Hobby shrinks - Hobby dies

Except that none of those connections are inevitable. None of them are even probable. When you multiply the probabilities/rates of all of them together, the chance for the entire chain becomes vanishingly small.

If the hobby is dying, the explanation is going to be much simpler than that. Or so a Mr. Occam suggested to me.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Water is wet.
Fish live in water.
Therefore fish are water.

Wait, shouldn't that be this?

Water is wet.
Fish live in water.
Therefore fish are wet.

If you wanted to demonstrate drawing a false conclusion from two true statements, it'd be more like:

Water is wet.
Fish are wet.
Therefore fish are water.

Great, now I'm starting to over-analyze since those "true" statements leave me uneasy....

All Water is wet.
Most Fish are wet.
Therefore most fish are water.

I think that's the best way to truthfully express the example and arrive at a false conclusion, I'm rusty at logic.