The Problem of DDI...Solved! (Well, not really)

[Herschel]

So you claim repeatedly, but I seem able to explain my position where you do not, except in the most general, sweeping terms. How, exactly, does nerfing the product and deliberately restricting the flexibility of it serve WotC's interests as far as profit is concerned?

Wow, how can you not understand basic business logic? General terms are where you are utterly failing in comprehension.

The product isn't "nerfed" it's changed platforms and actually has better functionality for a large part of the market. It's also far more flexible for many people now. If you live in any sort of populated area in the free world, internet access is almost everywhere, so long as you have the means to access it. If you don't have the tools, that's not their fault. They're better off catering to people with the tools than making an easily pirated or skimable product.

If you're running a fruit cart on a street corner and your apples are starting to get old, you can sell them cheap to a person just to make a little or minimize the loss. But when you have a recurring or subscription-based product available to a large market, you can't cut individual deals with everyone. It's not feasible, it's not profitable. The old character builder in some ways allowed this to happen "automatically", excouraging regular buyers to circumvent the purchasing system.

The online builder is pretty slick, works better than the old one for most things, and is getting better all the time. I admit I never experienced any of the problems others have complained about but then again, am I some lucky magic cosmic juggernaut of electronic manipulation? I'm thinking not.

 

[Herschel]

A sub-optimal business can make a profit, that should be obvious. There is a good deal of headroom between unprofitability and optimality.

You can't even keep your point straight or understand how businesses work. You completely lose sight of things like overhead and reasearch & development.

Let me break this down in as base terms as possible:

Just making a profit isn't enough, especially in large corporations and their divisions/subsidieries. In other words, just making any profit isn't good enough for the vast majority of businesses, especially makers of luxury goods and services.

When your product is easily pirated or taken for free or at a greatly reduced cost, that is bad for business, period. Reducing the price in a large market only works for high-volume transactions which individual users are not, by definition.

Look at it another way, the joke about fleeing a bear as a group: I don't need to be faster than the bear, I just need to be faster than you. The character builder needs to show a value to the company equal to or greater than products and services of similar overhead/costs that are alse deemed worthwhile. If those recources could produce greater value elsewhere, the initial product/service is gone, and generally with extreme predjudice.

Bottom line: The old builder didn't provide the needed value to WotC that an online builder did, so it was dumped. Nothing you want, say or do will change that no matter how you try to spin it. It was a business decision not some nefarious plot. They have a team of experienced people and resources examining these moves. You have no idea what their data is and you simply don't have any basis for your illogical stance.

 

[Balesir]

Wow, how can you not understand basic business logic? General terms are where you are utterly failing in comprehension.

I understand business logic pretty well, and I'm not "failing in comprehension" - I'm just failing in agreement. I can see the point being made by the "retrict and control" crew quite well - I just think it's bunk.

The product isn't "nerfed" it's changed platforms and actually has better functionality for a large part of the market.

It improved for Mac users. For everyone else it took a step back, still has no houseruling capability (even at the pretty poor level of the offline CB), and will disappear whenever WotC decides that the tool you are paying for is no longer something they wish you to have access to. Sounds nerfed, to me, and unfixably so.

It's also far more flexible for many people now.

Flexible how? Houserule capability is nil. Character limit is 20 characters. Offline reading capability is nil, unless you set it up for yourself via PDF printing, or whatever.

If you live in any sore of populated area in the free world, internet access is almost everywhere, so long as you have the means to access it.

If I'm at home or near a wireless hotspot, sure, it would be fine. In most convention halls, however, not so much.

If you don't have the tools, that's not their fault. They're better off catering to people with the tools than making an easily pirated or skimable product.

The tools aren't the core problem. The ability of WotC to yank the product when they want you to spend money on something else is the real nub of the problem, for me. Offline, online or whatever, you need the tools to use the CB - but they're pretty common.

If you're running a fruit cart on a street corner and your apples are starting to get old, you can sell them cheap to a person just to make a little or minimize the loss. But when you have a recurring or subscription-based product available to a large market, you can't cut individual deals with everyone.

It's not about "making individual deals" - it's about differential pricing; look it up.

It's not feasible, it's not profitable. The old character builder in some ways allowed this to happen "automatically", excouraging regular buyers to circumvent the purchasing system.

Several businesses do it, so it apparently isn't infeasible or unprofitable. And you still haven't grasped what the lack of a meaningful cap on production capacity means for a producing business.

The online builder is pretty slick, works better than the old one for most things, and is getting better all the time. I admit I never experienced any of the problems others have complained about but then again, am I some lucky magic cosmic juggernaut of electronic manipulation? I'm thinking not.

But it's still not as flexible as you could write into a spreadsheet (with a deal of effort) and when Wizards decides it's time for 5E, you'll still be without it as soon as they decide it's time for you to switch.

 

[Balesir]

For the last time, read what I effing well write! Your response makes it clear you are ignoring half of what I say.

Bottom line: The old builder didn't provide the needed value to WotC that an online builder did, so it was dumped. Nothing you want, say or do will change that no matter how you try to spin it. It was a business decision not some nefarious plot. They have a team of experienced people and resources examining these moves. You have no idea what their data is and you simply don't have any basis for your illogical stance.

Bottom line, I think the new pricing system will provide less income than the old one. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the entirety of my argument. The costs will stay the same, but fewer people will pay - some of those who were paying before won't, and I see no reason why those who were not paying will suddenly begin to do so. It's that simple.

 

[Herschel]

I understand business logic pretty well, and I'm not "failing in comprehension" - I'm just failing in agreement. I can see the point being made by the "retrict and control" crew quite well - I just think it's bunk.

It's not about "making individual deals" - it's about differential pricing; look it up.

Several businesses do it, so it apparently isn't infeasible or unprofitable. And you still haven't grasped what the lack of a meaningful cap on production capacity means for a producing business.

Wow, you obviously have no idea what differential pricing means in the real world. It's ALREADY IN PLACE in the form of the subscription model. You get a discount by purchasing a larger committment of three months or a year.

There's really no other differential pricing that would be feasible for you or I to purchase under.


1. This is not an auction.

2. As I already mentioned, we're individual users, not volume buyers. Amazon and large distributors would get a volume discount because...


3. WotC isn't a direct seller (to the end users) of their product so there's no tracking to offer a discount based on indiividual purchases across their product line. Heck, even the Character Builder runs through Digital River.

4. There's no subsidies, write-offs or even positive publicity for offering this type of product to lower income users unlike necessities. In other words, pharmaceuticals are a different breed of product than games.

 

[Herschel]

Bottom line, I think the new pricing system will provide less income than the old one. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the entirety of my argument. The costs will stay the same, but fewer people will pay - some of those who were paying before won't, and I see no reason why those who were not paying will suddenly begin to do so. It's that simple.

Anyone who wants to use the builder has to pay now. As I and others pointed out before, less users can easily mean more profit. People springing a bit more for a subscription rather than random updates means more and or consistent. Current subscribers are still good. Getting rid of the freeloaders means more due to less overhead/maintenance. Getting some of the randoms and some of the pirates to pay means more even with fewer overall users.

As for the way you see it, you're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to be wrong. Internet entitlement whineboards are not viable marketing data. You, as an individual, aren't statistically relevent. Lots of people are using the builder and they can't please everyone. Personally, I don't like Essentials so I'm not buying those books for my shelf. Lots of people are very happy with those products though.

 

[Balesir]

Wow, you obviously have no idea what differential pricing means in the real world. It's ALREADY IN PLACE in the form of the subscription model. You get a discount by purchasing a larger committment of three months or a year.

There's really no other differential pricing that would be feasible for you or I to purchase under.

Wow, you started yet another post with the word 'wow', for no apparent reason

Re. differential pricing, I'm not talking about volume discounts - I'm talking about different prices for a different service plan, different extras or different product bundles. E.g. if you are prepared to accept the product without updates and online enhancements (like upload to the VTT), you pay less.

Anyone who wants to use the builder has to pay now.

Anyone who wanted legitimate access to the builder before had to pay, too - so what?

As I and others pointed out before, less users can easily mean more profit.

If you have complete control of supply and no competition, sure. But every intellectual property supplier, be it as books, software, databases or whatever, nowadays has competition. The pirates. That competition can be beaten, like any competition, by a successful business - but not by trying to sell an inferior product at a profitable price. By selling an excellent product at a profitable price - quite possibly.

People springing a bit more for a subscription rather than random updates means more and or consistent.

But the price hasn't gone up. Why would anyone be paying more?

Current subscribers are still good.

No, current subscribers are SOL as soon as WotC either decides to stop supporting the CB, moves on to a new edition or changes the CB to match a change the subscriber doesn't like. In other words, the current subscriber is getting an inferior product for their money. If some are happy with that, good luck to them.

Getting rid of the freeloaders means more due to less overhead/maintenance.

More overhead, I don't see why. More maintenance, maybe, but, unless the processes are really inefficient, not by much.

Getting some of the randoms and some of the pirates to pay means more even with fewer overall users.

Possibly - but I don't see why they would pay, now. If it wasn't worth it before, it certainly won't be now the product is worse.

s for the way you see it, you're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to be wrong. Internet entitlement whineboards are not viable marketing data. You, as an individual, aren't statistically relevent. Lots of people are using the builder and they can't please everyone. Personally, I don't like Essentials so I'm not buying those books for my shelf. Lots of people are very happy with those products though.

If you like getting inferior product for your money and being at the mercy of your supplier, don't let me stop you. I already decided not to accept the deal. If enough is added to DDI to make it worth the money to me, I may resubscribe - but I'll never use the online tools, so they will remain just baggage as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Herschel]

1. Re. differential pricing, I'm not talking about volume discounts - I'm talking about different prices for a different service plan, different extras or different product bundles. E.g. if you are prepared to accept the product without updates and online enhancements (like upload to the VTT), you pay less.

2. Anyone who wanted legitimate access to the builder before had to pay, too - so what?

3. If you have complete control of supply and no competition, sure. But every intellectual property supplier, be it as books, software, databases or whatever, nowadays has competition. The pirates. That competition can be beaten, like any competition, by a successful business - but not by trying to sell an inferior product at a profitable price. By selling an excellent product at a profitable price - quite possibly.

4. But the price hasn't gone up. Why would anyone be paying more?

5. No, current subscribers are SOL as soon as WotC either decides to stop supporting the CB, moves on to a new edition or changes the CB to match a change the subscriber doesn't like. In other words, the current subscriber is getting an inferior product for their money. If some are happy with that, good luck to them.

6. Possibly - but I don't see why they would pay, now. If it wasn't worth it before, it certainly won't be now the product is worse.

7. If you like getting inferior product for your money and being at the mercy of your supplier, don't let me stop you. I already decided not to accept the deal. If enough is added to DDI to make it worth the money to me, I may resubscribe - but I'll never use the online tools, so they will remain just baggage as far as I'm concerned.

1. This simply isn't deemed feasible by them, and for good reason: it complicates things that don't need to be. They are pushing towards a fully intigrated product. (they may add tiered pricing packages once all phases are complete, or they may not) I don't see myself ever using the VTT but the character builder and even monster builder provide enough value to me to subscribe.

2. But they only had to pay once, or sporadically.

3. Again, you seem to take your feelings about teh character builder as an overall market fact. It's not. Lots of people are still happily using it and many more are looking to add when the VTT is up & running.

4. Because some more will be actually paying and/or paying regularly. If some can get something they like for free (or closer to) rather than paying full price, they often do. However, if their "only" best option to use/get what they like is to buy the subscription, many will. Many won't also, but the numbers favor the will in the overall picture.

5. The sky will not fall if a new edition comes out. Export copies of your characters regualrly if you don't want print copies and there's no big deal except you may have to go back to updating or making characters by hand. No big deal.

6. your opinion is the product is worse, a lot of people like it better and/or will find added value with upgrades and features like the VTT.

7. Again, your opinion is not market fact. For me, the new one actually works much better than the old one, and I have used both extensively.

 

[Balesir]

1. This simply isn't deemed feasible by them, and for good reason: it complicates things that don't need to be. They are pushing towards a fully intigrated product. (they may add tiered pricing packages once all phases are complete, or they may not) I don't see myself ever using the VTT but the character builder and even monster builder provide enough value to me to subscribe.

They already had such a differential set up, so it is obviously feasible - they just decided they didn't want it (for some reason).

2. But they only had to pay once, or sporadically.

Hence differential pricing, exactly. If the price was too low, the possible answers included "charge an up-front fee for a license".

3. Again, you seem to take your feelings about teh character builder as an overall market fact. It's not. Lots of people are still happily using it and many more are looking to add when the VTT is up & running.

I certainly agree that there may be many who like the new CB - there's one born every minute But assuming that there are enough who will be keen to use a product that they have no conttrol over or ownership of is likelwise not a safe assumption, on your part.

4. Because some more will be actually paying and/or paying regularly. If some can get something they like for free (or closer to) rather than paying full price, they often do. However, if their "only" best option to use/get what they like is to buy the subscription, many will. Many won't also, but the numbers favor the will in the overall picture.

How do you know this last sentence to be true? It seems unlikely in the extreme, to me - do you have any evidence at all, or are you just making assertions in a bid to bluff?

5. The sky will not fall if a new edition comes out. Export copies of your characters regualrly if you don't want print copies and there's no big deal except you may have to go back to updating or making characters by hand. No big deal.

So, you are happy to pay for a tool that could leave you with no option but a pencil and a sheet of paper next week (or tomorrow)? I can get a pencil and a sheet of paper now, and it's a lot cheaper. Better still, I can get a spreadsheet that I can modify for myself using the books and my laptop.

6. your opinion is the product is worse, a lot of people like it better and/or will find added value with upgrades and features like the VTT.

With later upgrades, maybe it will become in some ways more feature-rich, flexible and useful than the old CB, agreed. Right now, though, it has no houserule capability, no "future proofing" and no usability when without internet access. That is simply "worse", any way you cut it.

7. Again, your opinion is not market fact. For me, the new one actually works much better than the old one, and I have used both extensively.

Granted, I can't speak for the entire market. But neither can you.

 

[wedgeski]

Actually, it is. See if you can grasp this: supplying the product to one more user costs WotC close to nothing. Zero. Zip. If it cost them a penny, your assertion would hold water, but it doesn't.

I don't know if you're still asserting this, because I honestly can't be bothered to read two pages of single-sentence quoting, but there is pretty much nothing right about this comment. Every new user has an accountable, measurable cost in terms of the bandwidth, storage, and customer support required to service them, as well as potentially deferred costs which will be incurred for changes and updates across the life-time of the product.