The problem with elves (question posed)

[PallidPatience]

The Aerenali elves are chakkin' sweet.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Don't make'em not want Elves. Make Elves cool.

Let this be your mantra. Whenever you feel the urge to get silly and make elf-players' lives hell, repeat the mantra until the bad vibes leave.


Don't curse the darkness, light a flamethrower sort of thing, you know. Instead of complaining that elves seem boring and bad and everything, go and make them good. Everyone can complain about them, but the good DM will do something about it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm not exactly sure what the point of your exercise is. I can make gold dragons useless, too, by making them into complete pacifists, which is the lynchpin of your elves-are-helpless concept. The other stuff can be finessed.

Mainly with green slime. The human arts of war can pretty much suck it if you have free access to that stuff.

Nor am I sure why those nasty humans would be driven to kill the elves, exactly. They are, after all, hot. They'd probably wind up being concubines.

Yes ... with green slime elves have a war weapon of staggering proportions.
This leads towards a crucial point I wish to make.
That point is that, for elves to be truly viable, they must create their own Alternate Reality, in which they can remain themselves (be elven, not humanlike), and still survive. They can use some of the innate abilities I gave them to do this (your green slime) but mostly it is a matter of high level magic.
I will show, in some replies, how authors have depicted the humanization of elves, and their subsequent and inevitable fall and disappearance. For behaving like humans never works for elves, no matter how hard they try it. Elves must be ELVES, and use their magic to remake reality so that this is possible. It is the only way.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Huh, why? If an elf can jump on a bear, step on a carrion crawler and swim in a fire ant swarm without being attacked, because they have a supernatural immunity to aggressivity; why doesn't it extend to other people too?

Because those other adventurers are not elves. The elf cannot transfer his immunities to others ... without magical spells. If the elf does not have the magic, then his fellow adventurers get eaten by green slime, paralyzed by carrion crawlers, and die from fire ant attacks.

These immunities make the other races, especially humans, jealous. Jealousy is a big thing, and it leads to hatred and persecution. Even the elf's fellow adventurers probably, secretly, deep down, resent the elf for the talents he possesses, and they don't.
The elf PC will face this jealousy time and again, in ways big and small.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Tolkien "saw" nothing with respect to any inevitable chain of events that would see elves exterminated other than the doom they brought on themselves by following the prideful and vengeful Feanorians. The elves of Middle Earth weren't exactly pacifists. The transition Tolkien wrote about from the elven paradise of Middle Earth to the dominance of the Second Born has more to do with an extended transition from a paradise like Eden into the mundane world.

What happened here is crucial, and is a component of other fantasy settings.
The Vanyar and the Teleri were 'high elves' in the respect I portrayed, living in blissful peace and plenty. Remember how I said that if no other sentient race existed to contest the world with the elves, they could relax and have their arboreal paradise?
Well, with the Valar protecting them, with their own personal paradise of Valinor to live in, they got just that.

The NOLDOR, however, decided to become like humans are. Compliments of Morgoth and his corruption, the Noldor came to see things as humans see them, learned the arts of war as humans war, became jealousy and proud and arrogant and otherwise badly behaved, just as humans are.
So they slew their own kindred, and went off to war with Morgoth. The fathers of men joined them as the Edain, and the Falathrim joined them along with some of the other Sindar.

Look what happened.
The orcs and balrogs and dragons eventually crushed most of the elves. Evil men allied with Morgoth aided in this destruction.
Most of the surviving elves, hiding in Doriath, were crushed in war with the dwarves of Nogrod, or slaughtered by their own kind.
Finally, Gondolin, mightiest of all the elven cities, was found and destroyed in an epic battle.

Beleriand after that point was dominated by orcs, the other creatures of Morgoth, evil men, and dwarves. And it would have remained that way, permanently, had Earendil not made his fateful voyage.
The Noldor learned the hard way (and the Sindar too) that 'playing human' doesn't pay, not for them, for elves. 'Playing human' brought death, enslavement, and extermination.
Had Earendil not moved the Valar to mercy, that lesson might have gone on for many more thousands of years, or perhaps for entire Ages of Arda.

Now, extrapolate this to the D&D settings.
Here, you will see many elven nations 'playing human'. And they are going down the same sad road the Noldor went. The plot is different, the setting different, the reasons somewhat different, but the outcome is the same.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Edena, it is so good to have you back. . .

Can you do something similar regarding your view on dwarves?

Yes, will do.
One of the innate powers of any dwarf, for example, is the ability to breathe carbon dioxide and nitrogen as well as oxygen.
They can safely breathe carbon monoxide, methane, sulphur dioxide, and other vapors that would kill humans (and elves) without harm to themselves.
They have other abilities as well ...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Because you don't like elves and are hoping somebody will play one so you can stick it to them? That's my first guess.

Do you mind-control paladins to eat babies and then have them lose their paladinhood, too? ;P

-The Gneech

It's not me. It's the way the settings are set up. They are set up to stick it to elves.

D&D awards experience points for killing things. In 3E, experience is also awarded for winning encounters (usually by killing things.)
So, he who kills the most things wins. He wins, in a scenario where nations and peoples compete for power, and the highest level characters have the most power to hurl in behalf of their people or their side.

But even without the mechanics, in a violent, paranoid world where peoples and nations are at constant war (the case in every D&D setting) there isn't much of a place for peaceful elves living quietly in their arboreal paradise, eating leaves, no?
If the elves don't fight back, they are destroyed. If they do fight back, that's 'playing human' and they are still destroyed.
Only by altering reality with magic, can elves make it in the fantasy settings. This is a fact that the elves never seem to appreciate ... and so they go the way of the dotto (or the Noldor.)

Imagine a group of elves living between Cimmeria, Pickland, and Aquilonia. If they were peaceful, gentle types, they wouldn't last very long there ...

 

[shilsen]

It's not me. It's the way the settings are set up. They are set up to stick it to elves.

As mentioned above, not necessarily. Check out Eberron. That's a setting where the elves are sticking it to a few people

But even without the mechanics, in a violent, paranoid world where peoples and nations are at constant war (the case in every D&D setting) there isn't much of a place for peaceful elves living quietly in their arboreal paradise, eating leaves, no?

Why are elves peaceful creatures living quietly in an arboreal paradise eating leaves? That's not exactly the flavor they have in 3e, I'm not sure they had it in earlier editions, and they sure as hell didn't have it in Tolkien (since you mentioned him).

If the elves don't fight back, they are destroyed. If they do fight back, that's 'playing human' and they are still destroyed.

Why is fighting back 'playing human'? Elves, dwarves, hobgoblins, orcs, monkeys with sticks and lots of other species fight back when threatened. That's not 'playing human', any more than humans liking gold is 'playing dwarf' or appreciating nature is 'playing elf'. And there's no necessary reason why elves fighting back should necessarily be destroyed. That may occur in a given setting in a given circumstance, but it's not a logical correlation in any way.

Only by altering reality with magic, can elves make it in the fantasy settings. This is a fact that the elves never seem to appreciate ... and so they go the way of the dotto (or the Noldor.)

Again, as mentioned above, that may be the case sometimes. But it's hardly the only option.

Imagine a group of elves living between Cimmeria, Pickland, and Aquilonia. If they were peaceful, gentle types, they wouldn't last very long there ...

True, but since elves aren't necessarily peaceful, gentle types (and, I'd argue, according to the flavor on elves in D&D are definitely not so), that's not really an issue with elves.

 

[Wolv0rine]

I've got to go full-bore with shilsen & others on this one, Edena... what you're describin in your posts doesn't resemble the elves of my game world in the slightest. I weould look at your elves with a look of profound confusion and ask what those are, because I don't recognize them as elves.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

These immunities make the other races, especially humans, jealous. Jealousy is a big thing, and it leads to hatred and persecution.

I wouldn't say that other races will attack elves because elves are immune to flea bites and such. They might covet their land and the resources to be found there, but to go to war over things you can't take for yourself is a sure sign of insanity, and not everyone is that messed up in the head.

Even the elf's fellow adventurers probably, secretly, deep down, resent the elf for the talents he possesses, and they don't.

Come on, if that were true, adventuring as we know it in D&D wouldn't exist at all.

I have played many characters with abilities the other party members didn't had, and they didn't resent my character for it.

I played an elf that was immune to sleep and needed only 4 hours of sleep per night, but the other characters didn't resent him for it.

Right now I play a dwarf priest that has the power to heal even the most grievous wounds, protect himself and others from all kinds of harm, and turn himself into a 70-foot juggernaut of destruction that can pound balors into the dust within one round. The others don't envy or resent me.

Another character in that party has the ability to blast away with destructive magic for long stretches of time, obliterating great numbers of enemies with each attack. He can also take down a solar from full to far negative with a single spell. I don't resent him, and neither do the other characters.

Yet another character in that party has wings, so he can fly all the time, not the couple of rounds or minutes we others can achieve with our magic (and some can't do it at all).


While it is true that some will resent others for powers they don't possess themselves, but it's not universal.

And what of the other races? You said that dwarves can breathe a great number of gases beyond "normal air", which I guess isn't their only special ability, nor do I believe that the rest of the races got nothing. Why doesn't anyone resent them?

Yes ... with green slime elves have a war weapon of staggering proportions.

Yeah! Forget storms of vengeance, meteor swarms. or troups of elite warriors. Green Slime will Overcome All.

That point is that, for elves to be truly viable, they must create their own Alternate Reality, in which they can remain themselves (be elven, not humanlike), and still survive. They can use some of the innate abilities I gave them to do this (your green slime) but mostly it is a matter of high level magic.
I will show, in some replies, how authors have depicted the humanization of elves, and their subsequent and inevitable fall and disappearance. For behaving like humans never works for elves, no matter how hard they try it. Elves must be ELVES, and use their magic to remake reality so that this is possible. It is the only way.

I still can't see how elves must be hopeless pacifists and that humans have the monopoly on war.

Even if they value life and nurture sick bird babies back to health and all that, it doesn't mean that they will never kill, even if their denial will cause more carnage. So those humans or orcs or any other race or group invade the forest, needlessly killing trees and woodland critters and elves? They must be stopped, for they don't rever life, so they must be stopped at every cost. Doing so will protect those who can't protect themselves and will, ultimately, be pro life.

The NOLDOR, however, decided to become like humans are. Compliments of Morgoth and his corruption, the Noldor came to see things as humans see them, learned the arts of war as humans war, became jealousy and proud and arrogant and otherwise badly behaved, just as humans are.

No, they didn't. Humans did not, at this point, even exist, if I recall correctly. If they changed to become like something else, they became more like the Black Foe and his followers.

The orcs and balrogs and dragons eventually crushed most of the elves.

Not necessarily orcs. Orcs were badly made, they could not stand up against the Noldor even if the Noldor were exhausted, surprised, and outnumbered. It was more the other creatures Morgoth made or recruited, like balrogs and dragons.

Humans wouldn't have fared better against that onslought.

Now, extrapolate this to the D&D settings.
Here, you will see many elven nations 'playing human'. And they are going down the same sad road the Noldor went. The plot is different, the setting different, the reasons somewhat different, but the outcome is the same.

I'm still not convinced that they "played human".

And it doesn't matter in the end, because you don't have to copy this part of those D&D settings.

And it's not all settings that have this tendency, either.