The problem with elves (question posed)

[Nifft]

One of the innate powers of any dwarf, for example, is the ability to breathe carbon dioxide and nitrogen as well as oxygen.
They can safely breathe carbon monoxide, methane, sulphur dioxide, and other vapors that would kill humans (and elves) without harm to themselves.
They have other abilities as well ...

That makes me jealous of them! Can I kill one?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Kae'Yoss]

That makes me jealous of them! Can I kill one?

Only if you have a gas mask. Otherwise you'd die before you got close.

 

[Arkhandus]

Edena:
I'm confused.

Your description clearly describes the elves as pacifists of just about the most extreme sort. They can hardly fathom the possibility of hurting another living thing.

So how come they haven't all been eradicated in your campaign setting? Surely, any random monster, let alone humanoid bandits or armies seeking elven treasures or elven lands, would exterminate a significant chunk of the elven race all by itself. An orcish horde would easily wipe out these cowering pacifists, who stare aghast at their killers, stunned by the bloody rampage of orcishkind, lacking any natural inclination for self-defense.

Clearly your elves are less capable of violence than a timid rabbit, for at least Nature has seen fit to give such a small, herbivorous creature with some amount of fighting instincts to preserve itself. Yet your elves sound like they would be so horrified after mustering the will to strike down a single marauding enemy, that they would freeze up and withdraw into their minds from the shock and despair of what they just did. And then be promptly overrun by the remaining horde of enemies.

The Tarrasque, a mind flayer, a demon, a beholder, or a red dragon would just have a field day slaughtering elves like a giant stepping on helpless ants.

That is the major problem I saw when I read your description. Your elves are completely unrealistic, lacking even the most basic of natural instincts for self-defense. They cannot go adventuring. They would be so horrified by the act of hurting another living creature, that they would retreat and hide for a long time after just one act of very hesitant violence, and likely never want to go through that again, even if their life were threatened once more. They are unnatural.



As for Tolkien's elves (since I'm less familiar with the other authors you mentioned): I don't think they're very much like you think they were. Tolkien's elves were not pacifists, and they were not so ill-prepared to live in Middle-Earth. They were tougher and more skillful than humans in battle, and they had no problem fighting the monsters, humans, and corrupted elves (orcs) that the Enemy mustered against them, to the bitter end.

The elves only retreated to the West because they had fought the Enemy for so many hundreds or thousands of years that their numbers were depleted, whereas Morgoth (IIRC the name) just kept corrupting humans, elves, and Maiar into his servants, and kept his vile orcish breeding program maintained deep beneath his fortress (I forget the name), to continue churning out more orcish warriors. The elves were too depleted and tired of fighting both men and orcs for so long, and realized that they were becoming too scattered and small a minority in the lands of Middle-Earth, so more of them began heading into the West to join their kin.

Even so, the elves never really died though, they were immortal. The lands of the Valar (again I forget the name) were part of Middle-Earth and were the destination of elven souls, though the dead elves who re-formed in the Halls of Manwe (I think that was the location) had to stay separate from the other elves until Eru/Iluvatar determined the time when they would be reunited (or maybe it was Manwe who had to decide? I forget). Although the lands of the West were partially removed from Middle-Earth to be unreachable to Man and the forces of Sauron, they were still part of the world. I don't recall right now, but I think there was a mandate that elves who went to the West could not return to Middle-Earth (or vice versa?), because of some problems earlier. I really should read the Silmarillion again to refresh my memory.......

Tolkien's elves, in any case, were suited just fine to adventuring in the D&D sense, and lived for thousands of years alongside Dwarves and, to a lesser extent, Men (since they appeared quite some time later than the Elves and Dwarves). They had both peaceful and conflicting relations with both races. Although not that many elves went adventuring, they had little need or reason to, but some did travel and adventure, certainly. They don't really compare to your purely-non-adventuring-and-super-pacifist style of elf.

 

[The Green Adam]

It's not me. It's the way the settings are set up. They are set up to stick it to elves.

The way things are set up in your game? 'Cause it doesn't work like that in my campaigns.

D&D awards experience points for killing things. In 3E, experience is also awarded for winning encounters (usually by killing things.)

It doesn't work like that in my campaigns. It hasn't for over 20 years. I only award points for creatively defeating a difficult opponent. Hacking Orcs just makes you not dead from them hacking you.

So, he who kills the most things wins. He wins, in a scenario where nations and peoples compete for power, and the highest level characters have the most power to hurl in behalf of their people or their side..)

Not necessarily unless by wins you mean lives. In a scenario where nations compete for power, high level characters are involved in the politics and economics and that is the true source of power. People may die on their behalf, but it has nothing to do with winning since no one wins in a war. Its all about the story gee.

But even without the mechanics, in a violent, paranoid world where peoples and nations are at constant war (the case in every D&D setting)

Except mine. :\

there isn't much of a place for peaceful elves living quietly in their arboreal paradise, eating leaves, no?

Sure there is. Why not? Why say some only happens one way? Why, in a pastime of fantasy and imagination, think that everything, always, works in one particular fashion. Change it for the positive. Make several changes. Make multiple new versions in the same universe. Why not?

My Elves are neither hunted by Humans and the other races nor lording over them. They are very magically powerful and long lived, but for centuries were slow to make major advancements or changes. They did not originally come from my world and had to adapt to living there (not being immortal anymore, gravity, that kind of thing). Eventually each of the Elven types formed (High, Wood, Sea, Dark (Drow), White (called the Uldra), etc., and found their own way in the world. Some were militant, some thought they were going home, some figured they were better then everyone else, some just wanted to stay and live off the land.

Nobody hated them. Nobody retreated to the west. Nobody stuck it to them.

 

[William drake]

Because those other adventurers are not elves. The elf cannot transfer his immunities to others ... without magical spells. If the elf does not have the magic, then his fellow adventurers get eaten by green slime, paralyzed by carrion crawlers, and die from fire ant attacks.

These immunities make the other races, especially humans, jealous. Jealousy is a big thing, and it leads to hatred and persecution. Even the elf's fellow adventurers probably, secretly, deep down, resent the elf for the talents he possesses, and they don't.
The elf PC will face this jealousy time and again, in ways big and small.

"Die from fire ant attacks," are you serious?

I think what men would be most jealous of, would be the long life, and the magic, and ability to look so perfect, not by the other immunities that you've stated; even so, I don't think it would logically put a whole race against another.

My friend, you have a strange twist on things, and I feel shaken for the players in your games.

 

[William drake]

"Playing Human"

If the elves are older than humans, then Men; and war, or conflict is older than both, and Elves would reach this natural accurancce first, since they've been around longer; then, wouldn't it be Humans Playing Elves when War was the topic of the day, and not the other way around?


I think you've taken alot of time, and mixed up some things.
I think you've goten Elves, and Fey mixed up. And by Fey, I mean: pookas, redcaps, eshue and the other differnt types of the two houses: Selie, and Unselie. These are all of the magical beings/creatures: since at times they are animal like, and others, they seem to have a mind-like quality to them. They are the child-like, long nosed, wild hair, long fingers and feet creatuers that live in the woods, in the cubbords, and in unfilled shoes. But their shapes, forms and figures have to many versions for me to name here, and each that could be so defined, can be undefined and reshaped as has happened many times over to the point that all we see now are the creations made by jim henson from The Labryinth Movie.

Yes, I know, they are all goblins in the movie, but my point is, at one time, there were no goblins or Elves. All Fey were good and bad, their natures were pure chaos.

Elves, came about later in stories, myth, and legend when the tellers put a more human-like feel to these fantasy creations. Their nature split away, and some grew beyond the mysterious and child-like. They became a people with a history, gods, and the mind-made feel that they once really existed. The celts, goths, vikings, and some of the many germanic tribes later formed them into the clasic types we know today. Because, at one time, there were no Sun, Moon, Wild, Plain or High Elves, they were all the same, and only later as the tellings got more detailed, did the tellers make them unique, with different types and powers and so on and so on.


And now that I think about it, you've done just the same, but to a much sad extent.

I would ask you to read again "Elric:Song of the Black Sword" and all of the other books which you've read and see them for what they are. Tellings of a particular point of view, not fact and not certanity. I would agree, as I've said in another post. That fantasy does tend to have Men win out, but this is a large topic which is a natural progression. The new world, or the world without magic, is mundane; it is not a place for the elves. Humanity changes things, and so the elves, in most cases find themselves not wanted, or finding it simply cold to exist in a world with a mental breaking of the passions of pure reality. They see the future, and go for they know what is coming is not for them. And so, they go.

Now, that was the case in Tolkien's story. Elric's is a much diffrent tale. In it, elves are evil, and crule, there are no good eives, save one, the hero, who knows that all that he, and his people are, is wrong and only because of his hate for the gods, and their fate driven world, does he do what is done in the story. My point is, if the story was set for Elric to reclaim the world, which was ruled by that Evil Melnebone empire, he would've. He certainly had the power, the knowledge, the magic. I mean, his people ruled the world for 10,000. He could've done it, but the story was set for a change, something else. So it was.

You've got to understand. WE are MEN, we live in a world of Men, there is a need to relate to a human. Aragon: lord of the rings, Rakier *the red archer*: Elric and many many others. Elves are outsiders, ancient, and powerful, wise and noble *in most cases*. The stories are for human triumph *in most cases* becasue, well, we want to root for ourselves; but our winning is not an Elven falling, its just not.


I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Moorcock once, and let me tell you; he would not approve of what you've said. You showcase your thoughts as the Truth, the only logical reasons of the Elven Dynamic which makes Sense. I hope you reconsider.


Its late now, off to bed for me. For everyone else:


Game On

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I would play one. I don't buy into the part where elves cannot adapt to anything. They might be CG, in tune with nature, and appreciative of the arts, but that doesn't mean that they can't fight back.

In fact, your usual elf in your average D&D campaign world is quite warlike - they get free proficiency with swords and bows, for example, they have several specific roles that are not exactly pacifistic.

And you wrote it yourself: They retain the vigour and hot blood of a human young adult for centuries. That doesn't exactly sound like they would sit back and remain as they were when humans invade. Your average young adult is still quite good at adapting.

And they're CG. That means that they are in favour of change. I wouldn't say that this means that they're extremely pacifistic, never killing anyone or anything. They are linked to nature, and nature kills. They will eat meat (though they will not take more than they need), and they will defend their home against predators.



Despite the old idea that elves had their golden age a long time ago and are now in a decline (which the FR have recently reversed: The Retreat is over, there have been some major victories, and so on), I don't see why that has to be the case in every single world.

In fact, I could see a world where elves instead of humans are the dominant race, having retained their vast realms they had founded so long before. Instead of the same old story, that would be a refreshing change.

The culprit in this situation is, I think, Tolkien: His elves, though they were very powerful once (and whose personal power is still above that of humans, especially if it's a Light Elf or even Noldor), have had their time in the First Age, and parts of the Second, but by the Fourth Age (which started just after the LotR books), they are mostly removed from the world, which is firmly in the humans' hands.
Since so many concepts in D&D were borrowed from Tolkien and others, they took this part of elven history with them into the Realms, and probably many other settings (since humans are usually depicted as the dominant race).

Nah. They prove nothing except that they're creepy. Creepy guys come in all kinds and flavours. Creepy guy who always plays a hot elf chick. CGWAP an elven supremist, CGWAP who plays a completely antisocial elf twink. CGWAP a paladin who's a pain in the butt for everyone else, CGWAP something that is the opposite of the other characters, tries to get them into trouble, tries to force others to eventually throw him out of the party.




As to the abilities: Some are a bit weird:

Agnakok: Tolkien had the idea of elves being immune to poison and disease, and I could see that. The adaptability to survive in extreme environments like exteme sunshine and the like could also be due to their partly magical/supernatural anatomy.

But the part about bugs not flying into their mouth sounds a bit much. Sure, the idea of a hero that is above invonveniances like flea bites sounds good, but I wouldn't go quite that far as to say that the world will prevent them from harm. It may be in their pheromones or something like that, many creatures might be disinclined to pester them on purpose, but I'd say that bugs do fly in their mouth if they happen to be in the way, or that sharp rocks and the like can still cut them if they're not careful (but give them a racial bonus to survival in natural surroundings)

Aging: The times are a bit long, but that should not really matter for an adventurer (player character) in a campaign that will last one game year or so.

Immune to poisons and the like: As I said, that can work. The gods that created them had the foresight to make them so that these things won't bother them.

Immune to animal attacks: Now that one's weird again. I'd replace it by some racial bonuses to survival, as well as an animal empathy - like ability. This would make them less likely to be attacked by animals (because they could avoid angering them, and because they could calm them down), and avoid dangerous plants, but no blanket negation of these abilities.

Elfsight: Very keen eyes that are not easily blinded sounds okay, as does the darkvision. I would cut out the infravision, though.

Appearance: The +2 Cha is okay - in fact, I could see adding that to normal 3.5e elves without a level adjustment - that -2 Con is nasty. They're usually described as quite handsome, so this would only fit.


All in all, the abilities how I described them would probably be a bit strong for normal +0 LA (the original ones would almost certainly be +1 or maybe even better), but it might still work out - dwarves aren't exactly weak, either.

How strong are the other races in your campaign?

Let me comment on each point in turn.

- Of course elves can fight back. But it seems like they don't fight back very well. Consider the destruction of Qualinesti and Silvanesti (Dragonlance.) Consider Athas (Dark Sun, elves reduced to a remnant of savage tribes.) Consider Oerth (Greyhawk, elves reduced to Celene, Ulek, and the Lendores, and isolated elsewhere.) Consider Toril itself (FR, elves reduced to Evermeet and Evereska.) Consider Aebrinis (Birthright, elves driven from most of the continent.)
The Question really is: how can we make it so elves can fight back effectively, while still remaining elves?
- Player Character elves are sorta an exception. I'm mostly discussing the background material, which directly or indirectly affects PCs.
- Yes, elves are hot blooded young adults for a thousand years. But the flip side of this, is that elves reproduce extremely slowly. If a human couple in the medieval world has four children (who survive to adulthood) in 40 years, and they reproduce likewise, at the end of a thousand years you have countless thousands of humans. In that same time, an elven couple would have one or two children (three, at the absolute most.) Their one or two children, might or might not have yet had children themselves.
You'd think that being a hot blooded adult, eager for adventure, would lead over a thousand year period to astonishing levels of power. And it should, I think. But for some reason, elves just don't seem to go that route (there are exceptions, of course ... but these exceptions haven't changed the main reality. The Srinshee was powerful, but she disappeared and left Myth Drannor to fall.)
There seems to be a cultural defect with elves in that they sit back and do ... nothing.
- PC elves are all for change. But the societies they come from are not. I defy any PC to talk the elves of Evermeet into going back to Faerun.
- It would be a refreshing change, a world dominated by elves, if the elves did not act like humans in order to survive. Their survival mechanism should be uniquely elven. How do we accomplish that? (because this business of 'out-humaning' the humans when it comes to being ruthless and warlike and violent, is old hat. And it doesn't seem logical, considering elven realities.)
The elves of Toril had their First Flowering. What brought them down was a tendency to try to 'out-human the humans' as it were. I'm not referring to the savage Illthyrri (sp?) here, but to the Dark Disaster of Miritar (sp?) caused by the elves of Arvandaar, plus all the other nonsense pulled by the non-Illthyrri elves.
One has to wonder how the First Flowering came to be in the first place, with the elves so warlike and ruthless and downright evil. I guess it was High Magic, a temporary edge on magic the elves had that nobody else did.
- Of course Tolkien is to blame.
The Noldor had a lot more powers than those pathetic powers I would give to elf PCs. The Noldor had, roughly, +4 to +12 to their stats, supernatural physical adaptability (running in your sleep is quite a feat), supernatural magical aptitude, something pretty close to True Sight at all times, and in combat they were as nasty as it gets (even Morgoth took several hundred years to build an army big enough to defeat them.)
Yet the Noldor went down, in the end. All those skills were not enough. And after Morgoth thrashed them, Sauron thrashed them again. They exhausted all their remaining power beating Sauron in the Last Alliance, and they still didn't really win.
I could give Torillian elves all the powers of the Noldor. You know what the result would be? They'd try to take on the phaerimm. And that would be that. There's always a bigger fish out there. The elves, if they want to win, need a third way besides hiding or fighting.

I've played beautiful elven maids. The problem with doing this is a spell called Fireball and a failed saving throw.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

No matter how hard I try, in just about every game that I run the elves turn into fascists bent on destroying the inferior races.

1 -- Elves are superior to other races in just about every way. (See Above Posts)
2 -- Proficiency in longsword and Longbow. (Easily trained troops with good weapons.)
3 -- Easily fed in the field on leaves (Field rations/logistics just got easier).
4 -- The other races keep taking elven lands (Casus Belli)
5 -- Powerful elven magic, passed down for millenia.
6 -- No sleep required, and can see in the dark. Natural Night fighters.

Therefore:
The Elves find they have no choice but to exterminate the inferior races with extreme prejudice.

I didn't bring this up before, knowing someone else would.
Of course, elves are often racist, bigoted, or even extremists. They think themselves better than all the other races.
This attitude has not worked for the illithid, who are much more powerful than the elves and free of any moral restraints, not to mention the illithid work as a tightly knit team. So obviously it doesn't work for the elves.
It DOES eliminate the possibility of alliances, isolates the elves militarily (ala Qualinesti or Celene) and makes it amazingly easy to squash these tree-huggers (Turrosh Mak will crush Celene come the next major war ... he already controls their southern and eastern border, their allies are estranged, and Keoland has problems of it's own.)

Exterminate the other races with extreme prejudice? Hehe. That sounds like the Daleks.
In the 3rd IR, the elves actually tried just that. EVERY OTHER RACE on Toril allied against them. End of the elves of Realmspace.

What I'm really trying to say is that, the elven attitude makes a bad situation worse. If it was hard for them to cope with the outside world before, it is much harder yet now.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think that after reading Edena_of_Neith's posts in this thread, I actually hate elves about twice as I previously did. I can't help but recall choice number five on the "Why do elves suck?" poll, right now.

Hehe. Weening players off elves, one player at a time.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'd just play my elf character however I pleased and not worry about alignment.

Basically, i figure adventurers are exceptional and I'm under no obligation to cleave to your vision of how elves should act.

Of course you aren't, and that's the point.
What I would ask of you, Wolfwood, is this:

How, aside from Playing Human (the way most races in the Star Wars Universe do) and being warlike and aggressive and a bunch of killers, and ... aside from running away and hiding in ever deeper forests ... how do the elves cope and thrive in a hard world (ala Hyboria) ?
How can elves be elves, and still triumph over the forces arrayed against them? (ala, Lord Soth, Mina, Iuz, Ivid, Turrosh Mak, Tzass Sam, Fzoul, archtraitor Kymil Nemesin, Rajak, the Dragon (Athas), and others ...)