The problem with Evil races is not what you think

aramis erak

Legend
It's not that orcs or drow are stand-ins for any specific human group.
It's that the existence of evil and savage races in fantasy gets us used to accepting that some groups are inherently evil and savage and can't be reasoned with and don't deserve approaching humanely.
Tolkien's orcs were. That they are " in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." (Letter #210, June 1958, to Ackerman)

Some have read even more into it, making Tolkien's orcs stand-ins for the Communists... China, Mongolia, and the USSR.

Not a few of Tolkien's generation were far more openly racist... not just in the UK, but also in the US, and in most Commonwealth nations. Eugenics was common in most 1st and 2nd world nations.
 

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I have no qualms with the notion of evil creatures, hordes of savage orcs pillaging the lands whilst the bastions of civilisation defends against them. They are what they are, fantastical tropes drawn from literatures and mythology to be played against with little concern.

Quibbling over then contemporary thinking that may or may not have influenced their design and only looking at historical sources with a modern contextual lens to justify accusations of racism or not is a form of genetic fallacy I have no wish to indulge in at the table.

My table has always been, and always will be inclusive to everyone who wishes to sit at it, as have many tables been since D&D‘s inception (despite recent attempts of historical revisionism suggesting otherwise).

The full rainbow of humanity’s uniqueness and diversity has always been represented at my table (as indeed, that is one of the defining aspects of humans as a race in D&D), but we won’t have a bland homogeneity of just humans but with green skin or pointy ears at our table .

Tools that use creatures as ethnic stand ins for their racist fantasies will always do so, despite any attempts to change the rules, the way to deal with them is the same as it’s always been, to walk from their table.

Of course, as always, what you do at your table is your business. But I would not seek to hand wring and denigrate your game as morally unacceptable either.
 
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Tolkien's orcs were. That they are " in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." (Letter #210, June 1958, to Ackerman)

Some have read even more into it, making Tolkien's orcs stand-ins for the Communists... China, Mongolia, and the USSR.

Not a few of Tolkien's generation were far more openly racist... not just in the UK, but also in the US, and in most Commonwealth nations. Eugenics was common in most 1st and 2nd world nations.
He’s not saying that Orcs ARE Asian. He is responding to Zimmerman who thought they should have feathers. The fuller quote is:

”[They have]squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”

Now, I absolutely do not defend the language used here. It is certainly crude and offensive to our modern ears and certainly reflects the racial attitudes of the time.

What he is actually saying, is making a comparison to someone who doesn’t have an idea of their looks. It’s like when you are describing a film to someone who hasn’t seen it before, “it’s a bit like Star Wars meets desperately seeking Susan.” Here he is saying, imagine typical Asian features, but then twist them, make them distorted, less human etc.

Again, absolutely crude and offensive to us and I will not defend the language used in a modern context, but it is important to understand that here, he is not saying they are based on Asian people. He is making a crude analogy (that is certainly unacceptable today) on how they look To someone who didn’t get his vision.
 

pemerton

Legend
I have no qualms with the notion of evil creatures, hordes of savage orcs pillaging the lands whilst the bastions of civilisation defends against them. They are what they are, fantastical tropes drawn from literatures and mythology to be played against with little concern.

Quibbling over then contemporary thinking that may or may not have influenced their design and only looking at historical sources with a modern contextual lens to justify accusations of racism or not is a form of genetic fallacy I have no wish to indulge in.
He’s not saying that Orcs ARE Asian. He is responding to Zimmerman who thought they should have feathers. The fuller quote is:

”[They have]squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”

Now, I absolutely do not defend the language used here. It is certainly crude and offensive to our modern ears and certainly reflects the racial attitudes of the time.

What he is actually saying, is making a comparison to someone who doesn’t have an idea of their looks. It’s like when you are describing a film to someone who hasn’t seen it before, “it’s a bit like Star Wars meets desperately seeking Susan.” Here he is saying, imagine typical Asian features, but then twist them, make them distorted, less human etc.

Again, absolutely crude and offensive to us and I will not defend the language used in a modern context, but it is important to understand that here, he is not saying they are based on Asian people. He is making a crude analogy (that is certainly unacceptable today) on how they look To someone who didn’t get his vision.
You seem to be the one who is guilty of a fallacy.

Why does JRRT reach for those tropes to characterise his "inherently evil" people? Because those tropes are part of a repertoire, grounded in racist ideas and a more broadly racialised worldview, that is readily available to him.

You also mischaracterise what he says. He obviously does not say "imagine typical [East] Asian features, but then twist them, make them distorted, less human etc". The word human does not appear in what you quote. He appeals to (what he takes to be) European reactions to certain non-Europeans.
 

You seem to be the one who is guilty of a fallacy.

Why does JRRT reach for those tropes to characterise his "inherently evil" people? Because those tropes are part of a repertoire, grounded in racist ideas and a more broadly racialised worldview, that is readily available to him.

You also mischaracterise what he says. He obviously does not say "imagine typical [East] Asian features, but then twist them, make them distorted, less human etc". The word human does not appear in what you quote. He appeals to (what he takes to be) European reactions to certain non-Europeans.
And what fallacy would that be? That’s a weak “no you” retort.
The genetic fallacy means (as demonstrated with the wedding ring example) that even if you could objectively prove that every fantastical monstrous trope in D&D had unequivocal, racially motivated origins, it has little to no relevance to how these creatures are utilised in the game.

Tolkien’s quote around “degraded and repulsive versions of” (not actual baseline phenotypic characteristics ) suggest a twisting from the norm. Twisting from a human norm would make it less human in appearance no? He is trying to draw a distinction away from Zimmerman’s imagining of beaks and feathers. And again, I do not subscribe to his language used at all.

Certainly, his world view was characterised by his context, as is everybody’s. Certainly, his words would be called out were they uttered today. I would happily do so. It seems you are happy to acknowledge the setting context yet condemn him with a modern lens. Which is in itself problematic because then all literature prior to the last decade must be condemned as it is tainted by world views that are not our own.

If you could pick any historical progressive person to meet, they would still hold values that would shock or discomfort our modern sensibilities. Because it needs to be contextualised. Ie, are their views extreme from their contemporaries?

If we are to condemn Tolkien for his letter here, then surely he should be applauded for earlier letters.

For example, Nazism did not spring up from no where, anti semitism had been rife in the western world for some time (and unfortunately persists to this day). Tolkien’s pro Jewish rebuttal to Nazi questions around a possible Jewish heritage should be acknowledged in attempts to question how prejudicial he was in relation to his contemporaries.

Relating it back to his Orcs, they are more biblical for his sources. His Elves are akin to angels, Orcs, corrupted versions of those, echoing a fallen angel trope.

Possibly the only explicit Orc based on a real world subculture would be the Games Workshop Orc based on English football hooligans.

For anyone concerned, as an Englishman, you have my blessing. It’s all good.
 

Yora

Legend
You seem to be the one who is guilty of a fallacy.

Why does JRRT reach for those tropes to characterise his "inherently evil" people? Because those tropes are part of a repertoire, grounded in racist ideas and a more broadly racialised worldview, that is readily available to him.

You also mischaracterise what he says. He obviously does not say "imagine typical [East] Asian features, but then twist them, make them distorted, less human etc". The word human does not appear in what you quote. He appeals to (what he takes to be) European reactions to certain non-Europeans.
That's supposed to be an excuse?
 




Though it does support the claim that he based orcs on "others".
Well again, he’s evoking the fallen angel imagery.

Regarding others and othering. That in itself, in the abstract is no bad thing (to be absolutely clear, you apply that to real world peoples, that’s definitely wrong and a problem). A lot of folk lore, myth and creatures from many cultures around the world have creatures and monsters that are the other. Beings that have superficial human features but have aspects that are “wrong”, specifically making them other worldly, inhuman etc. These can be both positive and negative to the perception of these mythical/fictional beings.

This can range from European folklore such as the elves and dark elves to Asian demons that aren’t necessarily demons as we think of them today. Humans have done this for millennia.

As stated, the only problem then is if you apply these attributes explicitly to real world groups to “other them” (see for example Nazi propaganda around Jewish people) or indeed a lot of “scientific” works on black peoples.
 

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