The problem with Evil races is not what you think

[VelvetViolet]

so negotiation is conceivably possible.

Are you aiming for horror or non-horror?

 

[nevin]

This is a delicate topic. I very much want commentary to course correct me where necessary. Thank you in advance.

In a recent video, long time RPG creator Jim Ward (Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World) protested against the de-emphasis of alignment and elimination of absolutely Evil races like orcs in 5e, while praising its accessibility to new players.

In a perfect world, we understand that games are not real, and anything we do is not real. WE have no such problems with chess, for example. But in an RPG, we embody a character that we act through. That character is not real, but the emotions we feel while playing that character are real. This is where the problems begin.

If I were running a game with nothing but professional actors, I could trust them to be professional. The emotions they bring to their characters are just acting, and are not real.

If I were running a game with a small group of very trusted friends, whose morality I think I know, I would trust their role playing to a point, as long as they understood what they were doing was not real.

The problem comes in all other situations. I simply cannot trust when a player I do not know well wants to act out rape, racism, misogyny, or the like as anything but wish fulfillment. They may really be just role playing, but that requires trust, and trust takes time. To be frank, I do not think RPGs are the appropriate arena to act out wish fulfillment. That's what therapy is for, and I am very pro-therapy.

So the conflict arises from people who insist upon trust and their asserted goodwill to act out their dark fantasies. This is simply not possible or reasonable. Trust must be earned over time.

And so we come to Evil races. Old cis-white dudes (which includes me!) need to be very clear that these are not racist or misogynist proxies, and it is NOT unreasonable to suppose this. Goodwill is not the default, it must be earned. That may be disappointing for those wanting to see good in most, but it is the truth that not everyone is good.

To reiterate, I very much welcome comments to better refine my commentary. Thanks again in advance.

just like in real life you have to set boundaries. with people you don't know it's always better to just lay it out at the beginning and if they don't like it they can play somewhere else. In my experience most players don't want to play evil characters unless they have some serious issues to work out or have an overblown case of narcissism and want to make everyone else's life suck. After years of trying it I will only let someone play an evil character if I'm sure they aren't going to actively turn on the party because "they are playing thier alignment". That's not fun for anyone except that jerk.

That being said I've had a player play an evil character to the end of a campaign arc and no other party member ever knew they were evil. it was amazing and gave me all kinds of depth in the backstory of my campaign. But thats' one attempt in 30 years that actually worked out where the party had fun with it.

 

[John Dallman]

Are you aiming for horror or non-horror?

I was willing to take either course. If the characters did a good job of adapting to the Elder Things and negotiating with them, the adventure could turn into science fiction, and that's what happened in play. If they did a bad job, horror could re-assert itself. It was a case of "play it to see what happens."

There is a significant science fiction element in Lovecraft's work, which tends to get neglected.

 

[VelvetViolet]

I was willing to take either course. If the characters did a good job of adapting to the Elder Things and negotiating with them, the adventure could turn into science fiction, and that's what happened in play. If they did a bad job, horror could re-assert itself. It was a case of "play it to see what happens."

There is a significant science fiction element in Lovecraft's work, which tends to get neglected.

Okay. I’m only interested in HPL mythos for the scifi horror. If I just want scifi, then I have a plethora of alternatives.

 

[aramis erak]

Note, self defense laws vary a lot between countries even in modern times. What counts as self-defense in some parts of America would be second degree murder in Canada, for example. ((Sorry, this is treading REALLY close to politics, so, I don't want to elaborate more))

There are different varieties of self-defense laws by state in the US.
In some states, lethal force may be used to protect mere property, as well as prevent harm to person; in others, one has an obligation to flee if possible, and any force is only justified if one cannot escape nor otherwise prevent harm.

That Waterdeep has a no self defense law is not at all a verisimilitude issue for me. It's not terribly sane.... but many laws aren't. Or at least, many that had a sensibility at one point no longer do.
And some (like no donkeys in your bathtub, from a northwestern Alaska town) have some story behind them.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is interesting.

I found in play that the Chaosium scenario Beyond the Mountains of Madness gets a lot more interesting, and more survivable, if the characters, having learned the Elder Things' written language, start talking to them. Elder Things are very weird, but they are material creatures with recognisable needs and desires, so negotiation is conceivably possible.

For a modern take on the Deep Ones, see Charles Stross' novel The Jennifer Morgue.

Yeah, Stross' Deep Ones are a bit less 'out there' in the sense that you can NEGOTIATE with them. OTOH they are still completely incomprehensible, frighteningly powerful, and probably haven't destroyed us simply because we're just not important, like at all really.

As for the 'Elder Things', there wasn't much talking to them in any HPL Mythos stuff, but they never seemed like a super malign race either, just weird and out there. In fact, few of the RACES actually are 'monstrous'. The Deep Ones were really the main targets of that meme. Great Race of Yith, they're cool. Beetle creatures from the far future, no problem. Fungi from Yuggoth, eh, kinda trippy, but as long as you make it clear you aren't interested in being containerized...

It is the Great Old Ones themselves which seem malign, or at the very least extremely toxic, to us.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Yeah, Stross' Deep Ones are a bit less 'out there' in the sense that you can NEGOTIATE with them. OTOH they are still completely incomprehensible, frighteningly powerful, and probably haven't destroyed us simply because we're just not important, like at all really.

As for the 'Elder Things', there wasn't much talking to them in any HPL Mythos stuff, but they never seemed like a super malign race either, just weird and out there. In fact, few of the RACES actually are 'monstrous'. The Deep Ones were really the main targets of that meme. Great Race of Yith, they're cool. Beetle creatures from the far future, no problem. Fungi from Yuggoth, eh, kinda trippy, but as long as you make it clear you aren't interested in being containerized...

It is the Great Old Ones themselves which seem malign, or at the very least extremely toxic, to us.

I prefer Hahn’s analyses over the Chaosium-influenced fanon

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I prefer Hahn’s analyses over the Chaosium-influenced fanon

Stross seems to have hit a pretty good result. His work in the Mythos is extremely well-received. I mean, it helps that he is like about a 1000x better writer than HPL... lol (and I say this as a fan of HPL's work).

 

[VelvetViolet]

Stross seems to have hit a pretty good result. His work in the Mythos is extremely well-received. I mean, it helps that he is like about a 1000x better writer than HPL... lol (and I say this as a fan of HPL's work).

It’s more that whole “the fishies are vastly superior to humans” comes across as self-deluding propaganda even in the the original story if you read it with even a slightly critical eye.

The US military destroys Innsmouth and Devil’s Reef, but fish granny claims in a dream that it isn’t important and they’re really superior to those silly land dwellers. This despite the fact that they previously attacked Innsmouth and killed half the population when Obed Marsh was imprisoned, just because they stopped receiving sacrifices. Sounds to me like they realized they can’t win against the US military but are too much sore losers to admit it.

This “taking the stories at face value even when the facts don’t add up” is endemic to HPL fanfic. IMO Hahn’s critical analyses are the single most original take on HPL’s stories since HPL wrote them.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It’s more that whole “the fishies are vastly superior to humans” comes across as self-deluding propaganda even in the the original story if you read it with even a slightly critical eye.

The US military destroys Innsmouth and Devil’s Reef, but fish granny claims in a dream that it isn’t important and they’re really superior to those silly land dwellers. This despite the fact that they previously attacked Innsmouth and killed half the population when Obed Marsh was imprisoned, just because they stopped receiving sacrifices. Sounds to me like they realized they can’t win against the US military but are too much sore losers to admit it.

This “taking the stories at face value even when the facts don’t add up” is endemic to HPL fanfic. IMO Hahn’s critical analyses are the single most original take on HPL’s stories since HPL wrote them.

Well, a vast amount of the Mythos "doesn't add up" of course. HPL wanted to write about secret hidden stuff, not an all-out war of annihilation between Deep Ones and humans. Also I think he would say that Stross' Deep Ones, with their more pragmatic and fundamentally utilitarian view of humanity are less mysterious in some fashion. That is, the HPL Deep Ones REALLY DON'T CARE, maybe they cannot take on the US Military in a way that achieves their objectives, but we cannot even fathom what those are, and their actions make no sense to us at all.