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D&D General The Problem with Talking About D&D

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Going back to Coville's types of games, I've long thought there should be a shared language for table types.

# of players: Solo, Duo, Squad (3-5), Band (6-8), Gang (9+)
Social: None Light Medium Immersive
Tactical: Light, Medium, Heavy, Wargame
Heroics: Gritty, Heroic, Supeheroic, Mythic
Brightness: Sweet Bright Gray Dark, Black
Grimness of PC: Scum, Grim, Normal Noble, Royal,

I try to clarify this at Session 0 when I DM or play.
 

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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Going back to Coville's types of games, I've long thought there should be a shared language for table types.

# of players: Solo, Duo, Squad (3-5), Band (6-8), Gang (9+)
Social: None Light Medium Immersive
Tactical: Light, Medium, Heavy, Wargame
Heroics: Gritty, Heroic, Supeheroic, Mythic
Brightness: Sweet Bright Gray Dark, Black
Grimness of PC: Scum, Grim, Normal Noble, Royal,

I try to clarify this at Session 0 when I DM or play.

Interesting.

Using your framework, my group would currently be:

Players: Squard
Social: Light
Tactical: Medium
Heroics: Heroic
Brightness: Bright (maybe Gray depending on your definition...)
Grimness of PC: Grim
 

Eric V

Hero
The problem with fudging is that where do you draw the line. In my last session we had a real knock down drag out fight. Wound up chaining about four different encounters at the same time.

Fantastic fight. Fun all around. Now the last baddie standing was a brutal monster. The party would have won the fight, I’m sure but it would have been close and quite possibly killed more than one pc.

But I decided instead that the very intelligent monster would realize that it likely would not win and realizing that, it ran away. Given the situation and abilities of the monster it could do so.

Now, I drastically reduced the threat of an encounter. I certainly could have fought it out.

Did I fudge or not? Some would say yes and some no. If I choose to attack this pc rather than that pc because I know I won’t seriously hurt one and will likely kill the other, am I fudging?

If I choose a less optimal spell am I fudging? Or monster ability?

If I bunch up the baddies in a very poor life choice, am I fudging?

There are a million ways to adjust encounter difficulty. When does it become “fudging”?
I think narrative solutions are not fudging (so, an enemy retreating is fine), but ignoring dice/mechanics/etc. is (IMO). After all, if one ignores dice, then why have them? As well, narratively dealing with "inconvenient" dice rolls is part of the fun, no?
 
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Eric V

Hero
And I explicitly noted that the fact that "battle has been joined" does not mean a particular combatant's combat-related stats have been interacted with yet. Adjusting the AC of a combatant has not been attacked yet, for example.

But this doesn't address my real point. I'm not arguing whether doing such a thing is a good idea or not. I was addressing the fact that you called it cheating, which is an extremely loaded word with implications of the morality of the act. That's what I'm talking about. You can say that you don't think DMs should do it, that it's better if they don't, but calling it cheating takes it to a whole 'nother level.


No one needs to do anything as a DM. But there are many things that can be done to improve the game experience for some people. Maybe this is one of them?


I flatly reject the idea that "deceptive" and "cheating" are synonymous. DMs till tend to do all kinds of things that could be described as deceptive, as part of the game to make it more interesting.
Interesting take...I have two questions based on it, though:

1) Is it possible to cheat in D&D?

2) Is the DM the only one who can change numbers in the middle of the game to make it more fun? If so, why?
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
1) Is it possible to cheat in D&D?
Depends on what you consider "cheating". As mentioned above, there are many things the DM can do which as a player I would consider cheating; fudging dice rolls and changing creatures stats on the fly are the major two offenders.

2) Is the DM the only one who can change numbers in the middle of the game to make it more fun? If so, why?
Which is a question I asked earlier. Can players change their die rolls? Can they suddenly have better armor on if they are getting hit too much? And so on...

IMO no, because it breaks the immersion of the game. Fun is paramount of course, but if you can't have fun with the game abiding by bad rolls (as well as good ones), accepting the consequences of your choices, etc. maybe you should find a different game to play? 🤷‍♂️ (Yeah, I know, it sounds harsh but that is what I would tell a player...)
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
I mean, nothing wrong with learning and trying new things right?
If the people at your table are agreeable to it, sure. But that's hardly my point.

My point is give the people at your table greater consideration before letting someone else influence your group's fun. Right?
 

IvyDragons

Explorer
Which is a question I asked earlier. Can players change their die rolls? Can they suddenly have better armor on if they are getting hit too much? And so on...
player...)
Right, I agree that the players shouldn't be making up their own hit points, making up their own damage, just to tell "their story".
In the same vein I don't want the DM to change the monsters hit points, change whether a monsters hit, just to tell "the DMs story" or the DM deciding how the players should tell their story.

Now I can understand how many people nowadays, especially post Critical Role, have little interest in combat mechanics and just want to perform theatrically, and so are quite happy with DMs fabricating the numbers. And that is absolutely fine too, for them.

I heard in 6e they are planning to trying removing combat from DnD to streamline the story telling.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I heard in 6e they are planning to trying removing combat from DnD to streamline the story telling.
If they want to see the sale plummet that would be great!

Seriously, though, I've already advocated for removing attack rolls and just doing a "damage" roll each round, but not surprisingly it didn't get a lot of support.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I found myself agreeing with a large percentage of what Colville was saying, especially the idea that D&D exists (or can exist) in great variation and each table is different, and then scratching my head at his quasi-suggestions towards the end, which essentially boils down to yet another way of systematizing something which is ultimately organic.

As someone--like Colville and many reading this--who grew up playing D&D in the 80s, I've been somewhat struck by what seems to be an ever-increasing trend towards a kind of monolithic/consensus approach to "how D&D is to be played," at least partially fostered (whether intentionally or not) by WotC's publishing approach with 5E, with a small number of products covering a relatively narrow range of play styles. It almost seems like they have decided on what D&D is (or should be) for everyone, and they're going to publish within that narrowish band - or, at least, are moving in that direction. Perhaps a more accurate way of expressing what I'm trying to get at is that everything is re-contextualized within the current paradigm of what D&D is - so we might have a broad range of D&D's 50-year corpus, but it is homogenized towards a specific style and approach and ethos.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is a nefarious ploy on WotC's part to control how you play the game, but is rather mostly market driven. They have identified their new core audience--younger millenials and zennials--and are focusing on what they perceive to be their interests. In the past, especially so in 2E, they offered such a range and sheer quantity of product, that it was like a river branching into countless streams - and the water trickling away. Now it seems that they are focusing on a single river, bringing different streams into it. This strengthens sales and perhaps community cohesion, but seems to sacrifice creativity and diversity, to some degree - and the kind of "every table is different" approach that Colville is talking about.

Now where I find Colville's suggestions to be a bit off the mark is that it is yet another way of systematizing--even codifying--something which should ultimately be fluid and, as he himself says, customized to the specific game table. Of course this is a common cultural phenomena: everything must be labeled, identified, declared. Are you this or that? What specific variation are you? The problem, of course, is that real life (and people) cannot be so easily named and systematized. Lines are not so easily drawn. One danger is tribalism: Are you a theater nerd or a wargamer? Are you an X-ist or a Y-ist? Are you pro or anti? Etc. Another is an over focus on labels, at the expense of perceiving the actual individual (or campaign, etc) involved. It obfuscates nuance and dumbs down complexity.

What about this as an idea: Foster a culture in which when you join a gaming group, you realize that you are entering into a unique "eco-sphere" (or world) that has its own laws, own social and gaming contracts, each a variation on the Great Game that is D&D? Meaning, "WotC D&D" becomes a template that each group improvises off of, and improvisation and customization is assumed - to whatever degree each group desires. And we, as individual gamers, learn to feel comfortable with some degree of ambiguity.

I mean, when you start reading a novel or watching a movie, you probably have some idea of what you are getting into: you know the genre, you probably read back cover blurb or film description, and also probably picked up on a keyword descriptors. But none of that defines what the book or film actually is, and more creative and unique media will become its own entity outside of any labels. Sometimes you might even find that you enjoy something you didn't expect to enjoy, because you didn't like rom-coms but then you saw About Time and realized that rom-coms can be serious and witty and philosophical and moving. Etc, etc.

Now again, to some degree this is already the case. But I think WotC could do more to emphasize and encourage this, and I think the gaming community at large can do a lot more to foster such an environment.

Back in the day, the first question you'd ask when joining a group is, "What are the house rules?" There were almost always house rules. But this can also extend to play styles, themes, and even social dynamics. Generally these things are gradually discovered; I think it is somewhat artificial that we try to label them at the get-go as Colville suggests, even though I appreciate his underlying intention, and of course am not saying that no such "declaration of identity" cannot be useful. I mean, if I want to run a combat-heavy game in which gore is described in great detail, it is probably a good idea that I communicate that on my bulletin board at my FLGS when looking for players.

But what I'm taking issue with, and what I think Colville touches upon, is the implied idea that there is a OneTrueWay to play the game in any aspect of game play (mechanics, style, theme, social dynamics, etc), and that way is the way that WotC suggests, or even the community as a whole suggests or is fostered by various high profile examples such as Critical Role. I mean, how many online discussions/debates/arguments have we seen or been part of that essentially boils down to, "What is the right way of doing D&D?" with the erroneous implication that there is a right (and thus wrong) way?

I don't mean to overly criticize WotC or CR, as I don't really think they are explicitly saying, "This is the way to do it, and if you do it otherwise, you are wrong." But there does seem to a strong stream within the gaming community that subconsciously moves in that direction. It starts as "How do we do this?" and becomes "What is the best way to do this?" and edges too close to "What is the right way to do this?" with the implication being that every other approach is wrong or bad or even morally repugnant.

I think we should double down on real diversity in the gaming community in terms of how we approach the game, the styles of play, etc. We should foster a community that is inclusive of customization and uniqueness, in which fringe and heterodox approaches are the norm. We don't all have to agree, and we don't have to all do things the same way. I mean, a lot of online arguments could be solved if we accepted and embraced this, so that are debates would be less about "What is the right way to do this" and more, "What are the many ways to do this?"
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
.
I found myself agreeing with a large percentage of what Colville was saying, especially the idea that D&D exists (or can exist) in great variation and each table is different, and then scratching my head at his quasi-suggestions towards the end, which essentially boils down to yet another way of systematizing something which is ultimately organic.

As someone--like Colville and many reading this--who grew up playing D&D in the 80s, I've been somewhat struck by what seems to be an ever-increasing trend towards a kind of monolithic/consensus approach to "how D&D is to be played," at least partially fostered (whether intentionally or not) by WotC's publishing approach with 5E, with a small number of products covering a relatively narrow range of play styles. It almost seems like they have decided on what D&D is (or should be) for everyone, and they're going to publish within that narrowish band - or, at least, are moving in that direction. Perhaps a more accurate way of expressing what I'm trying to get at is that everything is re-contextualized within the current paradigm of what D&D is - so we might have a broad range of D&D's 50-year corpus, but it is homogenized towards a specific style and approach and ethos.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is a nefarious ploy on WotC's part to control how you play the game, but is rather mostly market driven. They have identified their new core audience--younger millenials and zennials--and are focusing on what they perceive to be their interests. In the past, especially so in 2E, they offered such a range and sheer quantity of product, that it was like a river branching into countless streams - and the water trickling away. Now it seems that they are focusing on a single river, bringing different streams into it. This strengthens sales and perhaps community cohesion, but seems to sacrifice creativity and diversity, to some degree - and the kind of "every table is different" approach that Colville is talking about.

Now where I find Colville's suggestions to be a bit off the mark is that it is yet another way of systematizing--even codifying--something which should ultimately be fluid and, as he himself says, customized to the specific game table. Of course this is a common cultural phenomena: everything must be labeled, identified, declared. Are you this or that? What specific variation are you? The problem, of course, is that real life (and people) cannot be so easily named and systematized. Lines are not so easily drawn. One danger is tribalism: Are you a theater nerd or a wargamer? Are you an X-ist or a Y-ist? Are you pro or anti? Etc. Another is an over focus on labels, at the expense of perceiving the actual individual (or campaign, etc) involved. It obfuscates nuance and dumbs down complexity.

What about this as an idea: Foster a culture in which when you join a gaming group, you realize that you are entering into a unique "eco-sphere" (or world) that has its own laws, own social and gaming contracts, each a variation on the Great Game that is D&D? Meaning, "WotC D&D" becomes a template that each group improvises off of, and improvisation and customization is assumed - to whatever degree each group desires. And we, as individual gamers, learn to feel comfortable with some degree of ambiguity.

I mean, when you start reading a novel or watching a movie, you probably have some idea of what you are getting into: you know the genre, you probably read back cover blurb or film description, and also probably picked up on a keyword descriptors. But none of that defines what the book or film actually is, and more creative and unique media will become its own entity outside of any labels. Sometimes you might even find that you enjoy something you didn't expect to enjoy, because you didn't like rom-coms but then you saw About Time and realized that rom-coms can be serious and witty and philosophical and moving. Etc, etc.

Now again, to some degree this is already the case. But I think WotC could do more to emphasize and encourage this, and I think the gaming community at large can do a lot more to foster such an environment.

Back in the day, the first question you'd ask when joining a group is, "What are the house rules?" There were almost always house rules. But this can also extend to play styles, themes, and even social dynamics. Generally these things are gradually discovered; I think it is somewhat artificial that we try to label them at the get-go as Colville suggests, even though I appreciate his underlying intention, and of course am not saying that no such "declaration of identity" cannot be useful. I mean, if I want to run a combat-heavy game in which gore is described in great detail, it is probably a good idea that I communicate that on my bulletin board at my FLGS when looking for players.

But what I'm taking issue with, and what I think Colville touches upon, is the implied idea that there is a OneTrueWay to play the game in any aspect of game play (mechanics, style, theme, social dynamics, etc), and that way is the way that WotC suggests, or even the community as a whole suggests or is fostered by various high profile examples such as Critical Role. I mean, how many online discussions/debates/arguments have we seen or been part of that essentially boils down to, "What is the right way of doing D&D?" with the erroneous implication that there is a right (and thus wrong) way?

I don't mean to overly criticize WotC or CR, as I don't really think they are explicitly saying, "This is the way to do it, and if you do it otherwise, you are wrong." But there does seem to a strong stream within the gaming community that subconsciously moves in that direction. It starts as "How do we do this?" and becomes "What is the best way to do this?" and edges too close to "What is the right way to do this?" with the implication being that every other approach is wrong or bad or even morally repugnant.

I think we should double down on real diversity in the gaming community in terms of how we approach the game, the styles of play, etc. We should foster a community that is inclusive of customization and uniqueness, in which fringe and heterodox approaches are the norm. We don't all have to agree, and we don't have to all do things the same way. I mean, a lot of online arguments could be solved if we accepted and embraced this, so that are debates would be less about "What is the right way to do this" and more, "What are the many ways to do this?"
I think you might be missing the point of having a graphical thing or sig code type indicator does in an environment like todays where houserules are so often maligned that even saying no to something printed in a deviation of what AL allows generates reactions once reserved for the most oppressive abusive hostile GM styles. Having the indicator on a gm screen or whatever means the onus is back on a new player to find out the house rules rather than the GM to explain all of them in the first three sentences of interacting with a perspective player. In cases on internet discussions it also sheds light on why someone's experience might be so different.
 

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