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D&D General The Problem with Talking About D&D

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
As @pemerton mentioned, the normative language is what becomes the problem. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Well, that wouldn't work for me, because i wouldn't enjoy it". But, "You shouldn't do that because I consider it to be cheating" is going to get a lot more push back.

Note, I'm not necessarily saying that you are calling it cheating. I'm simply spring boarding off your replies and the broader conversation that's going on.
Of course they're calling it cheating. Apparently fudgers are cowardly now too. The normative language always flows in fudging badwrongfun threads. And there's no point in shilly-shallying about what it is - they mean it.
 

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Oofta

Legend
RE: houserules. My stance is quite simple: if you introduce house rules, you're playing your own game now. Give it a name of its own because it deserves one.

Virtually every group I've ever played with has some form of house rule or, at the very least, "this is how I run X". It's the nature of the game and is even encouraged, people should make the game their own.

RE: the "problem". Yeah, there is one, and I'd say it's very deliberately created. WotC have a financial interest in keeping players playing their game, even if they don't actually want to, so of course they'll go out of their way to avoid finally growing a pair and prescribing a way of playing. Capitalism did what capitalism does, I guess.

That's ... one of the oddest statements I've seen. What possible value would it add? They tried to lock down a style of play in the last couple of editions, it didn't work. They made a conscious decision to make the game flexible and it worked amazingly well. Why would I want to be handcuffed to a style of play that may or may not work for me or my players?
 

That's ... one of the oddest statements I've seen. What possible value would it add? They tried to lock down a style of play in the last couple of editions, it didn't work. They made a conscious decision to make the game flexible and it worked amazingly well. Why would I want to be handcuffed to a style of play that may or may not work for me or my players?

You're missing @loverdrive 's point, whether deliberately or not. Just because something is good for business doesn't mean it's a good design or creative decision. A movie that tries to appeal to all audiences and winds up bland in the process isn't arguably superior to a leaner and more focused one, simply because the bland one did better box office. This notion that D&D's design is unassailable because of its market dominance...I mean, it's such an exhausting refrain, as though a game like Blades in the Dark is somehow making a big, dumb obvious blunder by going after a very specific, tuned playstyle, and not pretending it can do everything, for no reason other than it doesn't really provide mechanics beyond zero-to-hero combat-heavy progression.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
That's ... one of the oddest statements I've seen. What possible value would it add? They tried to lock down a style of play in the last couple of editions, it didn't work. They made a conscious decision to make the game flexible and it worked amazingly well. Why would I want to be handcuffed to a style of play that may or may not work for me or my players?
From a bottom-line, money-making perspective? No value, of course. From a design, better-game-making perspective? A lot.

You wouldn't be handcuffed to anything by the designers choosing to speak the truth. Every game has a method of play it was designed for, there's no way around it. The only option is to deliberately obfuscate it.

It'd be easier to recognize whether the game actually works for you or not, supports your playstyle or not, and make an informed decision to stay or leave to play something else when the intent is clear.
 

Oofta

Legend
You're missing @loverdrive 's point, whether deliberately or not. Just because something is good for business doesn't mean it's a good design or creative decision. A movie that tries to appeal to all audiences and winds up bland in the process isn't arguably superior to a leaner and more focused one, simply because the bland one did better box office. This notion that D&D's design is unassailable because of its market dominance...I mean, it's such an exhausting refrain, as though a game like Blades in the Dark is somehow making a big, dumb obvious blunder by going after a very specific, tuned playstyle, and not pretending it can do everything, for no reason other than it doesn't really provide mechanics beyond zero-to-hero combat-heavy progression.
WOTC's goal, and the goal of any company is to produce product that people use. Since D&D is a game that means maximizing the number of people who will enjoy playing it, which by all indications they far exceeded their own expectations.

I don't see why having a game that hits that sweet spot of flexible enough to be adapted to different styles and preferences without being so flexible that it feels like you have to design your own game is a bad thing. That's far from saying that the game is perfect, it's not. Nothing ever is. But it's good enough.

D&D isn't a boutique specialty brand. It's the Toyota of TTRPGs, not the Ferrari. There's nothing wrong with that.
 

Oofta

Legend
From a bottom-line, money-making perspective? No value, of course. From a design, better-game-making perspective? A lot.

As I posted above, Ferrari makes amazing vehicles. They're truly special and unique. That doesn't mean that the Toyota Camry is a bad vehicle because it has a different target.

You wouldn't be handcuffed to anything by the designers choosing to speak the truth. Every game has a method of play it was designed for, there's no way around it. The only option is to deliberately obfuscate it.

It'd be easier to recognize whether the game actually works for you or not, supports your playstyle or not, and make an informed decision to stay or leave to play something else when the intent is clear.

The game is quite clear on it's intent. The DM is in charge of the game, not the rules. Different groups will have slightly different play styles and rules interpretations. Way back when 5E was new there were interviews where they talked about a lot of this. One example was the stealth rules. Crawford had written up a lengthy document giving very explicit rules for how stealth worked. He discussed it with the team and they decided that instead of doing that, they would leave a lot of it up to individual play style and not dictate nitty-gritty specifics.

That doesn't make it a bad game. If you want a car that will do 0-60 in less time than it takes many people to read this sentence, buy a Ferrari. If you want a practical commuter car, get a Camry. If you want a specialty niche game, buy a specialty niche game. That doesn't make mass market D&D is inherently bad.
 

This implies that it is 100% completely impossible to size up an opponent before you attack
This is hyperbolic. Your paradigm is that if a DM changes an AC by a single point, that's cheating if it's done after battle is joined. "Sizing up an opponent" is not equivalent to "knowing its exact AC."

Even if I allow that, though, people are talking about modifying it after an attack has already been rolled. That is the very observation you seem to be asking for.
Some people are talking about that, but I'm not talking about that. My comments are directed at your blanket claim that it is all "cheating", including the things I'm talking about. I never said that there's nothing that could be considered cheating. I am objecting to your blanket statement.

Well, looking at the intransitive definitions of "cheat" since that's how I'm using the term (ignoring those related to relationship infidelity)...

Merriam-Webster:
Well, at least we're not concerned about being pedantic.

I am well within my rights to call dishonesty about how rules are adjudicated "cheating."
And I am well within my rights to say that using this term is inflammatory, counterproductive, and unfair.
 

WOTC's goal, and the goal of any company is to produce product that people use. Since D&D is a game that means maximizing the number of people who will enjoy playing it, which by all indications they far exceeded their own expectations.

I don't see why having a game that hits that sweet spot of flexible enough to be adapted to different styles and preferences without being so flexible that it feels like you have to design your own game is a bad thing. That's far from saying that the game is perfect, it's not. Nothing ever is. But it's good enough.

D&D isn't a boutique specialty brand. It's the Toyota of TTRPGs, not the Ferrari. There's nothing wrong with that.

At the risk of resuscitating an old and recurring argument, I don't think it's correct to draw a straight line between 5e's commercial success and some set of ingenious design decisions. This, again, defaults to an odd sort of corporate worship--whoever's biggest must be biggest because they're so smart, not because of tons of factors that have nothing to do with intent or quality. This kind of logic puts Disney on a pedestal for becoming the monoculture, or Facebook for buying their way to relevance through acquisitions (Oculus, Instagram, WhatsApp, etc.). Legacy advantages such as free marketing, universal name recognition, celebrity champions, all of that is business world business. That exists in one world, and design is wholly in another. And, imo, comparisons to something like Toyota don't work, because Toyota and Honda became the default in many places for a measurable, non-marketing, non-business reason, which was a quantifiable, measurable increase in reliability. They aren't workhorses because they can do tons of stuff--a Camry isn't popular because it's good at driving on highways as well as off-road. It's popular because it doesn't break down, something you can measure and compare. The analogy doesn't work.

But all of this comes back to the assumption that the 5e is some sort of intentionally generic fantasy toolbox, designed for a broad array of playstyles and settings. Never mind the absolute specificity of level-based progression, default XP-for-killing, the focus on CR-balanced encounters, and on and on, design decisions that don't actually support versatile play at all, but rather D&D-style-play. It's a toolbox with a few tools and lots of empty cut-outs for missing tools. Or, really, it's a screwdriver you can use to hammer nails if nothing else is around, but it still sucks at hammering.

(Obviously screwdrivers are fantastic, but let's not pretend they're something else)
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I found myself agreeing with a large percentage of what Colville was saying, especially the idea that D&D exists (or can exist) in great variation and each table is different, and then scratching my head at his quasi-suggestions towards the end, which essentially boils down to yet another way of systematizing something which is ultimately organic.

As someone--like Colville and many reading this--who grew up playing D&D in the 80s, I've been somewhat struck by what seems to be an ever-increasing trend towards a kind of monolithic/consensus approach to "how D&D is to be played," at least partially fostered (whether intentionally or not) by WotC's publishing approach with 5E, with a small number of products covering a relatively narrow range of play styles. It almost seems like they have decided on what D&D is (or should be) for everyone, and they're going to publish within that narrowish band - or, at least, are moving in that direction. Perhaps a more accurate way of expressing what I'm trying to get at is that everything is re-contextualized within the current paradigm of what D&D is - so we might have a broad range of D&D's 50-year corpus, but it is homogenized towards a specific style and approach and ethos.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is a nefarious ploy on WotC's part to control how you play the game, but is rather mostly market driven. They have identified their new core audience--younger millenials and zennials--and are focusing on what they perceive to be their interests. In the past, especially so in 2E, they offered such a range and sheer quantity of product, that it was like a river branching into countless streams - and the water trickling away. Now it seems that they are focusing on a single river, bringing different streams into it. This strengthens sales and perhaps community cohesion, but seems to sacrifice creativity and diversity, to some degree - and the kind of "every table is different" approach that Colville is talking about.

Now where I find Colville's suggestions to be a bit off the mark is that it is yet another way of systematizing--even codifying--something which should ultimately be fluid and, as he himself says, customized to the specific game table. Of course this is a common cultural phenomena: everything must be labeled, identified, declared. Are you this or that? What specific variation are you? The problem, of course, is that real life (and people) cannot be so easily named and systematized. Lines are not so easily drawn. One danger is tribalism: Are you a theater nerd or a wargamer? Are you an X-ist or a Y-ist? Are you pro or anti? Etc. Another is an over focus on labels, at the expense of perceiving the actual individual (or campaign, etc) involved. It obfuscates nuance and dumbs down complexity.

What about this as an idea: Foster a culture in which when you join a gaming group, you realize that you are entering into a unique "eco-sphere" (or world) that has its own laws, own social and gaming contracts, each a variation on the Great Game that is D&D? Meaning, "WotC D&D" becomes a template that each group improvises off of, and improvisation and customization is assumed - to whatever degree each group desires. And we, as individual gamers, learn to feel comfortable with some degree of ambiguity.

I mean, when you start reading a novel or watching a movie, you probably have some idea of what you are getting into: you know the genre, you probably read back cover blurb or film description, and also probably picked up on a keyword descriptors. But none of that defines what the book or film actually is, and more creative and unique media will become its own entity outside of any labels. Sometimes you might even find that you enjoy something you didn't expect to enjoy, because you didn't like rom-coms but then you saw About Time and realized that rom-coms can be serious and witty and philosophical and moving. Etc, etc.

Now again, to some degree this is already the case. But I think WotC could do more to emphasize and encourage this, and I think the gaming community at large can do a lot more to foster such an environment.

Back in the day, the first question you'd ask when joining a group is, "What are the house rules?" There were almost always house rules. But this can also extend to play styles, themes, and even social dynamics. Generally these things are gradually discovered; I think it is somewhat artificial that we try to label them at the get-go as Colville suggests, even though I appreciate his underlying intention, and of course am not saying that no such "declaration of identity" cannot be useful. I mean, if I want to run a combat-heavy game in which gore is described in great detail, it is probably a good idea that I communicate that on my bulletin board at my FLGS when looking for players.

But what I'm taking issue with, and what I think Colville touches upon, is the implied idea that there is a OneTrueWay to play the game in any aspect of game play (mechanics, style, theme, social dynamics, etc), and that way is the way that WotC suggests, or even the community as a whole suggests or is fostered by various high profile examples such as Critical Role. I mean, how many online discussions/debates/arguments have we seen or been part of that essentially boils down to, "What is the right way of doing D&D?" with the erroneous implication that there is a right (and thus wrong) way?

I don't mean to overly criticize WotC or CR, as I don't really think they are explicitly saying, "This is the way to do it, and if you do it otherwise, you are wrong." But there does seem to a strong stream within the gaming community that subconsciously moves in that direction. It starts as "How do we do this?" and becomes "What is the best way to do this?" and edges too close to "What is the right way to do this?" with the implication being that every other approach is wrong or bad or even morally repugnant.

I think we should double down on real diversity in the gaming community in terms of how we approach the game, the styles of play, etc. We should foster a community that is inclusive of customization and uniqueness, in which fringe and heterodox approaches are the norm. We don't all have to agree, and we don't have to all do things the same way. I mean, a lot of online arguments could be solved if we accepted and embraced this, so that are debates would be less about "What is the right way to do this" and more, "What are the many ways to do this?"
I quote, because I cannot thumbs up twice, and for Cosmic Truth!
 

Oofta

Legend
At the risk of resuscitating an old and recurring argument, I don't think it's correct to draw a straight line between 5e's commercial success and some set of ingenious design decisions. This, again, defaults to an odd sort of corporate worship--whoever's biggest must be biggest because they're so smart, not because of tons of factors that have nothing to do with intent or quality. This kind of logic puts Disney on a pedestal for becoming the monoculture, or Facebook for buying their way to relevance through acquisitions (Oculus, Instagram, WhatsApp, etc.). Legacy advantages such as free marketing, universal name recognition, celebrity champions, all of that is business world business. That exists in one world, and design is wholly in another. And, imo, comparisons to something like Toyota don't work, because Toyota and Honda became the default in many places for a measurable, non-marketing, non-business reason, which was a quantifiable, measurable increase in reliability. They aren't workhorses because they can do tons of stuff--a Camry isn't popular because it's good at driving on highways as well as off-road. It's popular because it doesn't break down, something you can measure and compare. The analogy doesn't work.

But all of this comes back to the assumption that the 5e is some sort of intentionally generic fantasy toolbox, designed for a broad array of playstyles and settings. Never mind the absolute specificity of level-based progression, default XP-for-killing, the focus on CR-balanced encounters, and on and on, design decisions that don't actually support versatile play at all, but rather D&D-style-play. It's a toolbox with a few tools and lots of empty cut-outs for missing tools. Or, really, it's a screwdriver you can use to hammer nails if nothing else is around, but it still sucks at hammering.

(Obviously screwdrivers are fantastic, but let's not pretend they're something else)
I never saidd it was a generic fantasy toolbox. D&D is not GURPS. If it tried to be, I don't think it would have been anywhere near as successful.

But yes, I do think it is more flexible than the previous two editions and I think that's part of the reason it's so successful. Just because I, like millions of others, enjoy playing the game, it doesn't mean that we "worship" WOTC. It just means that they produced a game that works for a lot of people.

D&D 5E is not designed to be a niche product, it's not designed to be a generic fantasy game. It's designed to be a flexible version of D&D that's easy to tweak and adjust, that expects people to have different experiences at the table. It succeeds at that quite well, I don't understand why it's controversial to acknowledge reality. It's the best selling version ever, it's flexibility is one of the reasons.
 

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