D&D General The Problem with Talking About D&D

[DND_Reborn]

This would be during the battle. And I only would do it when things were incredibly too easy. Oh, and I would never do this to make things easier (since that was never an issue), just harder.

I started off with giving them the choice of asking for "hard mode" during fights that were too easy, but quickly realized the answer was always "yes", so just started doing it without asking.

But yeah, never a secret, all die rolls made in the open, and always bonus rewards.

That's totally fair then IMO, especially since you discussed it and your group wants to play that way.

High level D&D is just so ridiculously overpowered, I have no idea how DMs manage to balance their encounters. I was running Out of the Abyss, so not many magic items and zero trips to the store, and STILL, every encounter was a cake walk.

True, published adventures are rarely challenging enough as written. I think it is because they are designed for more casual players and then experienced players walk all over them. Of course, personally I am not a fan of most tier 3 and tier 4 play anyway because the power scale you get to at that point is simply ridiculous to me.

That's when I realized 5E's purpose though. Even though as a DM I was secretly feeling terrible for not challenging them properly, the players were having the time of their lives. They loved the story and their characters and we all had a lot of fun. That's the point of 5E.

Frankly, this is a point I struggle with as well. If the challenges all end up too easy, sure people can still have fun, but then I feel like we might as well just be playing a story-game and dispense with combat altogether.

On the flip side, you don't want every combat to be a tooth-and-nail slug-fest to the bitter end, either.

So, to that end one thing I have never been a fan of in D&D (or any game) is the attrition model.

I'm glad you realized that (bolded) is the point--really of any game: to love the experience and have fun.

 

[payn]

Sigh. Yeah, it does. And the devs have said they balanced PC resources around 6-8 combats per day. Further proof that nobody reads that section of the DMG or pays attention to the devs.

Somebody corrected me on this notion once. I don't recall and see if I can find it. Though, my understanding is this was advice given by devs, but never actually used in the design itself. I don't know what to believe really?

 

[Jahydin]

Frankly, this is a point I struggle with as well. If the challenges all end up too easy, sure people can still have fun, but then I feel like we might as well just be playing a story-game and dispense with combat altogether.

I feel the same way. My group finally made the switch to PF2 and have really been enjoying the more challenging encounters that encourage good character builds and solid teamwork.

For new players though, 5E is still my go to system.

 

[Waller]

Colville has spoken. What do you think?

That was 10 minutes of him saying the same thing over and over and over again!

Yes, everybody's table is different.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I feel the same way. My group finally made the switch to PF2 and have really been enjoying the more challenging encounters that encourage good character builds and solid teamwork.

For new players though, 5E is still my go to system.

From what I've seen of PF2 it goes "too far" in the other direction for my tastes, but I am glad it works for you!

I am just beginning to work on converting D&D (5E particularly) into a non-attrition based game. I have NO idea if it will work out, but I have the weekend free so I am going with it.

 

[overgeeked]

Somebody corrected me on this notion once. I don't recall and see if I can find it. Though, my understanding is this was advice given by devs, but never actually used in the design itself. I don't know what to believe really?

Believe the people who designed the game when they tell you they designed it a specific way.

Was the game balanced around that 6-8 medium encounters?

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

 

[overgeeked]

The 5 minute work day has always been an issue. Why expect it to be different now?

Nearly 50 years of advancements in game design. But they threw that all out.

 

[Thomas Shey]

From what I've seen of PF2 it goes "too far" in the other direction for my tastes, but I am glad it works for you!

It does for a number of people, but at least if it tells you an encounter is of X danger, you can normally believe it. The only issue is that it does assume a degree of tactical engagement, and if your players aren't doing that you need to adjust accordingly, but you don't have to keep doing it on the fly once you understand what a proper adjustment for your group is.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

One thing I was considering when I was listening to it, is that there's probably something to be said for the idea of 'the average table' that different gaming groups match more or less to varying degrees, and in different ways that create an interesting twist on this: a lot of the community is playing the same game, in so far as that specific part of the game is concerned. Like, a lot of the players that are talking about RAW combos are probably playing at tables that more or less follow the rules of the game, as clarified (to the extent they're aware of) by its designers, being part of the conversation probably involves self-selecting for it in most cases. But then their game might not be the same in every way for example, they might not have the same rest pattern as another group which changes the alchemy of some rules options but not others, but then we can also factor that in with an if statement-- like "this ability is good if" which I've seen crop up in a lot of optimization guides. I do think the problem is worse with 5e, simply because the game has so many 'gaps' in it's design that need to be filled in or adjudicated. Its also a little worse I think because there's a strong culture of not reading the rules, telling people to actually read the DMG because the thing they need is there is kind of a meme at this point.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This would be during the battle. And I only would do it when things were incredibly too easy. Oh, and I would never do this to make things easier (since that was never an issue), just harder.

I started off with giving them the choice of asking for "hard mode" during fights that were too easy, but quickly realized the answer was always "yes", so just started doing it without asking.

But yeah, never a secret, all die rolls made in the open, and always bonus rewards.

High level D&D is just so ridiculously overpowered, I have no idea how DMs manage to balance their encounters. I was running Out of the Abyss, so not many magic items and zero trips to the store, and STILL, every encounter was a cake walk.

That's when I realized 5E's purpose though. Even though as a DM I was secretly feeling terrible for not challenging them properly, the players were having the time of their lives. They loved the story and their characters and we all had a lot of fun. That's the point of 5E.

I don't believe the point of 5e is just for the DM to show the players a good time. As has been said, feels very cruise director-y to me. That said, I'm glad it works for you.