D&D General The Problem with Talking About D&D

Really? I didn't see it. Yes 4E had everyone recharge at the same rate, but it's not like the version was particularly successful. That and it just meant that every PC wanted a 5 minute work day instead of just some of them.
Not really. At least not at our table. With everyone recharging at the same rate, and the vast majority of resources being at-will, or on a 5-minute short rest recharge, you had basically no one novaing and trying to long rest after one encounter. Everyone would just save their dailies for what seemed like the biggest fight of the day and get on with the game instead of dragging things out pointlessly. There was almost no incentive for doing it otherwise. Now, there’s no mechanical reason not to nova and long rest.
 

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Not really. At least not at our table. With everyone recharging at the same rate, and the vast majority of resources being at-will, or on a 5-minute short rest recharge, you had basically no one novaing and trying to long rest after one encounter. Everyone would just save their dailies for what seemed like the biggest fight of the day and get on with the game instead of dragging things out pointlessly. There was almost no incentive for doing it otherwise. Now, there’s no mechanical reason not to nova and long rest.
Other than in world logic that events continue to occur whether or not you interact with the.

But I get it, you think 5E is broken and will continue stating it like, well, a broken record. In my experience the 5 minute work day has been an issue with every edition, it's probably less of an issue now than it was in older editions.
 

Other than in world logic that events continue to occur whether or not you interact with the.
So no mechanical incentive then.
But I get it, you think 5E is broken and will continue stating it like, well, a broken record.
Same to you. I get you think 5E is perfect and will defend it to your dying breath. Pointing out a system’s flaws is not an attack on you or even the game itself.
In my experience the 5 minute work day has been an issue with every edition, it's probably less of an issue now than it was in older editions.
Except the one immediately preceding it, where it wasn’t an issue at all.
 

So no mechanical incentive then.
Other than the enemy may be carrying on with their nefarious plans, setting up ambushes or just plain going on a last minute vacation and absconding with the McGuffin, no. Not sure what kind of "mechanical" penalty could ever apply.
Same to you. I get you think 5E is perfect and will defend it to your dying breath. Pointing out a system’s flaws is not an attack on you or even the game itself.
The game is far from perfect. I just don't blame it for everything wrong in my game, I either accept it for what it is or come up with a work-around. I'm not the one who seems to inject this "5E is broke" into every thread that even vaguely references it.
Except the one immediately preceding it, where it wasn’t an issue at all.
The 5 minute work day has always been preferred by some people in every edition I've ever played. Which includes all of them. Why would you not want to be able to use your most powerful options every fight?

But that's the problem that Matt was pointing out. You'll never agree ... so have a good one. Sorry if things don't work for you, I'd try to give some practical advice based on what works for me but it seems like you'd rather complain than look for solutions.
 

See that seems infinitely worse to me, because you're breaking the reality of the game in play, in front of the whole group. They know you're not playing straight with them. It seems patronizing and an excuse for a roll of the dice you didn't like. Better to not fudge or make up reasons why an attack didn't hurt and just let the dice fall where they may. IMO, of course.
I'm not just "making up reasons." I use the world-building and rules. Draw on established but unexplored things, or leverage DW partial success rules. I've actually only had to do this once in four years. In that fight, I'd prepared for such an event (rather, I intended it to be too strong, since I wanted to know what was "too much" for the party), and I based the changes on the players' choices of how to fight. (Specifically, they got jumped by bound "shadows" left by the assassin cult. Fight went south, too many targets, too little area damage. They chose to focus fire the one big shadow rather than flee, which forced it to drain its lesser minions and run instead, holding its continued existence/mission higher than defeating one set of interlopers. Shadows like this were already known to have life-stealing powers, so this wasn't a stretch in the least.)

I'd much rather be honest with my players than deceive them, but yes, you're correct that I would rather never do any such in-battle modifications at all. As I said, I almost never actually do this. Having the occasional "disappointing" fight or the occasional fight where the players must retreat from something that shoud've been easy is not a bad thing. My players still, to this day, talk about that time they made my dramatic molten obsidian golem a completely trivial event--not because they were disappointed, but because being able to outsmart the DM and easily defeat a powerful foe was, in and of itself, a worthy experience.

Too many DMs, despite speaking so highly of the importance of stakes and how choices have consequences etc. seem rather precious about making sure that every fight goes according to plan, such that they'd rather deceive their players than allow a fight to be an accidental curbstomp (whether for or against the players.)

Would that make it less terrible to you?
That's pretty much what I advocated, just a little less flashy, so yeah, that would be just fine. I tend to like pulpy action-adventure with most of the drama and excitement centered on "explore this fantastical culture/location" and "face difficult questions of morality and values that have no right answer." As a result, especially now that my group is four years into this game (and if you cut out the breaks, we've had easily three years' worth of back to back weekly sessions), I tend to favor the flashy and dramatic because they've earned flashy and dramatic.

In the interest of Mr. Coleville's suggestion that we share what drives us to make conversations easier: I find "zero to hero" is often, in practice, "mostly zero, little to no hero," and that's really boring to me. Zeroes failing and failing and failing until eventually they get a lucky break doesn't feel fun or heroic or adventuresome to me. It feels frustrating and far too much like a reminder of an awful lot of real-life things I would really, really rather not be reminded of in the middle of my leisure-time activities. That doesn't mean I don't want character growth, nor that I want characters who can instantly defeat everything immediately, because that would be boring too! I just want characters that DO succeed at some things (but NOT everything) to start with, and slowly grow the scope and scale of that success until, by journey's end, they may look back and wonder how they ever thought that hunting giant sewer rats was a challenge.

This makes it more clear. You meant mathematically equivalent, not "precisely identical." But this is untenable because the DM making the same change while designing an adventure is also mathematically equivalent to this. So it's not just the math that matters, unless you want to argue that a DM making any changed to a published monsters is cheating.
I mean...I explicitly referred to doing it in play ("once battle is joined," which I said twice) so it feels more than a little unfair to skewer me on "but clearly this can happen BEFORE play!" Statistics that haven't entered play yet are not inviolate. I have no problem with that. I am specifically and exclusively talking about modifying a creature's statistics or rolls during combat.

No, that's absolutely valid to do. He's discussed this more in-depth in other videos, but it basically boils down to the fact that he (and a lot of other DMs) design a lot of monsters and encounters and playtest them in their main campaigns, which they don't want to completely destroy by a single encounter.

If you accidentally homebrew an overpowered monster for your players to fight or end up adding too many enemies to a single encounter (which could lead to a TPK), it is perfectly valid to adjust their stats mid-combat and fudge die rolls to make them a more appropriate challenge for the party's specific level and class composition.
Again, I reject this. I have never--not one single time--needed to fudge a single roll or secretly alter a single creature's stats, in four years of gaming (with a fair number of "we need a week off" breaks now and then, but definitely not a full year's worth of them). It is not necessary to do this, and it is absolutely deceptive to do it. Coleville himself openly said he will fake dice rolls so he can "prove" that the die "really" rolled what he said it did, even though it didn't. That is actively deceptive and, thus, cheating.
 


I'm not just "making up reasons." I use the world-building and rules. Draw on established but unexplored things, or leverage DW partial success rules. I've actually only had to do this once in four years. In that fight, I'd prepared for such an event (rather, I intended it to be too strong, since I wanted to know what was "too much" for the party), and I based the changes on the players' choices of how to fight. (Specifically, they got jumped by bound "shadows" left by the assassin cult. Fight went south, too many targets, too little area damage. They chose to focus fire the one big shadow rather than flee, which forced it to drain its lesser minions and run instead, holding its continued existence/mission higher than defeating one set of interlopers. Shadows like this were already known to have life-stealing powers, so this wasn't a stretch in the least.)

I'd much rather be honest with my players than deceive them, but yes, you're correct that I would rather never do any such in-battle modifications at all. As I said, I almost never actually do this. Having the occasional "disappointing" fight or the occasional fight where the players must retreat from something that shoud've been easy is not a bad thing. My players still, to this day, talk about that time they made my dramatic molten obsidian golem a completely trivial event--not because they were disappointed, but because being able to outsmart the DM and easily defeat a powerful foe was, in and of itself, a worthy experience.

Too many DMs, despite speaking so highly of the importance of stakes and how choices have consequences etc. seem rather precious about making sure that every fight goes according to plan, such that they'd rather deceive their players than allow a fight to be an accidental curbstomp (whether for or against the players.)


That's pretty much what I advocated, just a little less flashy, so yeah, that would be just fine. I tend to like pulpy action-adventure with most of the drama and excitement centered on "explore this fantastical culture/location" and "face difficult questions of morality and values that have no right answer." As a result, especially now that my group is four years into this game (and if you cut out the breaks, we've had easily three years' worth of back to back weekly sessions), I tend to favor the flashy and dramatic because they've earned flashy and dramatic.

In the interest of Mr. Coleville's suggestion that we share what drives us to make conversations easier: I find "zero to hero" is often, in practice, "mostly zero, little to no hero," and that's really boring to me. Zeroes failing and failing and failing until eventually they get a lucky break doesn't feel fun or heroic or adventuresome to me. It feels frustrating and far too much like a reminder of an awful lot of real-life things I would really, really rather not be reminded of in the middle of my leisure-time activities. That doesn't mean I don't want character growth, nor that I want characters who can instantly defeat everything immediately, because that would be boring too! I just want characters that DO succeed at some things (but NOT everything) to start with, and slowly grow the scope and scale of that success until, by journey's end, they may look back and wonder how they ever thought that hunting giant sewer rats was a challenge.


I mean...I explicitly referred to doing it in play ("once battle is joined," which I said twice) so it feels more than a little unfair to skewer me on "but clearly this can happen BEFORE play!" Statistics that haven't entered play yet are not inviolate. I have no problem with that. I am specifically and exclusively talking about modifying a creature's statistics or rolls during combat.


Again, I reject this. I have never--not one single time--needed to fudge a single roll or secretly alter a single creature's stats, in four years of gaming (with a fair number of "we need a week off" breaks now and then, but definitely not a full year's worth of them). It is not necessary to do this, and it is absolutely deceptive to do it. Coleville himself openly said he will fake dice rolls so he can "prove" that the die "really" rolled what he said it did, even though it didn't. That is actively deceptive and, thus, cheating.
Ok, that's a perfectly good explanation. I don't agree with all of it, but it makes sense and clearly works for you. I withdraw my comment, and apologize for mistakenly misrepresenting your position.
 

Other than the enemy may be carrying on with their nefarious plans, setting up ambushes or just plain going on a last minute vacation and absconding with the McGuffin, no. Not sure what kind of "mechanical" penalty could ever apply.
Bonuses for not doing cheesy things. Penalties for doing cheesy things.
The game is far from perfect. I just don't blame it for everything wrong in my game, I either accept it for what it is or come up with a work-around. I'm not the one who seems to inject this "5E is broke" into every thread that even vaguely references it.
You can’t fix a problem until you recognize that it exists.
The 5 minute work day has always been preferred by some people in every edition I've ever played. Which includes all of them.
Right. And the reward for doing so was greatly reduced in other editions...and greatly enhanced in this one.
Why would you not want to be able to use your most powerful options every fight?
Because it makes zero sense. As you mention at the top with in-fiction penalties for trying to cheese the mechanics.
But that's the problem that Matt was pointing out. You'll never agree ... so have a good one. Sorry if things don't work for you, I'd try to give some practical advice based on what works for me but it seems like you'd rather complain than look for solutions.
I have made it work, by house ruling the living hell out of 5E and homebrewing all the monsters.
 
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