D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Bedrockgames]

Like, I feel like tying such things to "intent" misses casual stereotypes and the harms they do. Like, you should look up the discussion around calling an African-American person "articulate", because I feel like it shows how intent doesn't really matter.

I am not going to get into real world racial examples because of the point about mods I made earlier. What I will say is intent still matters. There may be cases where regardless of your intent, something you do or say still has a bad effect. But intent is still an important factor. This is why we consider motive when charging someone with murder for example. And it matters because as readers of a book, or a game book, we have some responsibility to gauge what the author as trying to say. Now you can always have some things that, no matter what the intention, you think are wrong. Fair enough. But I think it is really lazy, and not very charitable to just declare intent doesn't matter, so you can always go to the conclusion you want. When think an author is trying to say something bad, but their intention is actually the opposite, it matters. Take parody and satire for example. Some people saw the film Starship Troopers and thought it was an endorsement of Fascism. They can defend that by saying: intent doesn't matter, this is how I felt while watching the movie. But anyone who makes a modicum of effort to meet the director halfway, can see it is satirizing fascism and militarism. The intent mattered a lot. And the book has a totally different message, and understanding the intent there matters as well.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I never played in the Al Qadim setting, but from what I understand that was where genies were by far featured the most prominently. From a few quick Google searches I see that elementals and elemental magic also were key features (and D&D genies are from the Elemental Planes).

Would the problem stated be remedied or at least mitigated if there was an official 5E Al Qadim update that was done right? It seems like the setting where genies are the most integral (although it still raises worldbuilding questions as to why genies are culturally similar to the culture of mortals in a section of the Material Plane).

 

[Justice and Rule]

Also nope.

I get paid for this stuff. Why would I give it away for free so someone can use it as ammo to prove I'm not sufficiently 'D&D' enough for an argument?

Should have just posted this.

 

[Remathilis]

I think it's worth noting that while it's good to have ideas about how to change thing, sometimes you can simply think something is wrong without having something in mind to fix it. Like, my solution was just something off the top of my head because you asked, so it's not going to be perfect. I can understand why some people don't want to put themselves out there when they haven't come up with a solution they've really thought about.

It does feel disingenuous though to say "x is wrong" and then criticize any solution without offering your own ideas. You offered a starting point, I might not like it but at least it something to discuss. Likewise, you might think my idea if heavy handed, but it's at least an attempt to address it. We foster discussion rather than flinging darts.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Should have just posted this.

View attachment 149733

Yeah, but the internet has really ruined Joker memes though. I don't need those associations.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I am not going to get into real world racial examples because of the point about mods I made earlier.

Look, I'm not asking for anything in-depth, but it's one of the simplest examples of something being racist without the intent. I mean, I could go more fantastically if you like.

It does feel disingenuous though to say "x is wrong" and then criticize any solution without offering your own ideas. You offered a starting point, I might not like it but at least it something to discuss. Likewise, you might think my idea if heavy handed, but it's at least an attempt to address it. We foster discussion rather than flinging darts.

I think that saying something wrong doesn't necessarily require a person to suggest a solution. Can it be irritating? Well, it depends on the situation. But it doesn't make the point any less pertinent. Sometimes you can recognize a problem but simply not have a good solution thought out.

Yeah, but the internet has really ruined Joker memes though. I don't need those associations.

Yeah, that's fair.

 

[TheSword]

I mean, you're premise is wrong because they weren't "White Europeans", they were Albanians, which are not generally considered "white" by European standards and often play into Muslim panics.

I’m not going to get dragged into a murky debate about whether sourthern or Eastern Europeans are white enough. It’s a peculiar distraction that doesn’t really have any bearing on the point. We don’t distinguish how white a person is depending on how far they are from Greenwich.

So for simplicity I will amend my statement to say…

“Sold to him by Europeans.

I hope you see the irony that you’re saying that the sheikh is a stereotypical Arab because he’s involved in slavery… something he’s being sold by Europeans. With their history of 400 years of the slave trade.”

Which doesn’t really change the point I’m making at all.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I’m not going to get dragged into a murky debate about whether sourthern or Eastern Europeans are white enough. It’s a peculiar distraction that doesn’t really have any bearing on the point. We don’t distinguish how white a person is depending on how far they are from Greenwich.

So for simplicity I will amend my statement to say…

“Sold to him by Europeans.

I hope you see the irony that you’re saying that the sheikh is a stereotypical Arab because he’s involved in slavery… something he’s being sold by Europeans. With their history of 400 years of the slave trade.”

Which doesn’t really change the point I’m making at all.

I mean, I hate to tell you this, but it's a real distinction that gets made and given the film's racism got called out by critics at the time, it seems relevant. Like, it was bad enough that Liam Neeson did ads for Albania.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Can we just have less slaves in general? In and out of game?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Can we just have less slaves in general? In and out of game?

It'd be nice, but given the thread in the Paizo forum, that is apparently a very controversial opinion.