D&D General The rapier in D&D

[Mannahnin]

Rapiers in D&D. A source of concern since 2000. Time truly is a flat circle.

They were in 2e as well. There I think the concern was that they didn't do enough damage to justify the proficiency, and wouldn't show up on the magic weapon table (a concern for anything introduced after the DMG).

I think Remathilis meant source of concern in the same sense we're seeing in this thread. That they don't fit the period feel/envisioned tech level lots of folks have for D&D, and that they unbalance the game by elevating Dex further as a god stat and devaluing Strength.

 

[Azzy]

Rapiers in D&D. A source of concern since 2000. Time truly is a flat circle.

Oh, it predates that by 11 years.

 

[Umbran]

I asked you to name an example of a rapier being used as an officer sidearm, and the one example you came up with was a modern musketeer unit. I don't move the goalposts, you never cleared the first one. Own goal.

Mod Note:
Hey, folks!

You see this analogy to scoring points in an internet discussion?
It tells me that folks in the discussion are becoming more interested in scoring points, in "winning", than exchanging ideas or learning.

That may feel good to you, but it isn't of much value to anyone else. So maybe reconsider it going forward. Thanks.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Oh, it predates that by 11 years.

And all circles are flat (two dimensional). What, scoring points with silly arguments? Never!

 

[Remathilis]

I think Remathilis meant source of concern in the same sense we're seeing in this thread. That they don't fit the period feel/envisioned tech level lots of folks have for D&D, and that they unbalance the game by elevating Dex further as a god stat and devaluing Strength.

While rapiers were part of 2e via supplement, 3e put them in the PHB with the explicit expectation it was the "Dex fighter sword" and preferred weapon of rogues. The concerns voiced here were similar to those 2000 era ones (which ran counterpoint to dwarf necromancers gnome barbarians as proof 3e was ruining D&D). There is nothing new under the Sun.

 

[Chaltab]

While rapiers were part of 2e via supplement, 3e put them in the PHB with the explicit expectation it was the "Dex fighter sword" and preferred weapon of rogues. The concerns voiced here were similar to those 2000 era ones (which ran counterpoint to dwarf necromancers gnome barbarians as proof 3e was ruining D&D). There is nothing new under the Sun.

What's wrong with Dwarf Necromancers and Gnomish Barbarians?

 

[Mannahnin]

While rapiers were part of 2e via supplement, 3e put them in the PHB with the explicit expectation it was the "Dex fighter sword" and preferred weapon of rogues. The concerns voiced here were similar to those 2000 era ones (which ran counterpoint to dwarf necromancers gnome barbarians as proof 3e was ruining D&D). There is nothing new under the Sun.

I remember the same.

In 2E they were pretty marginal, and 2E used supplements to support all kinds of settings and historical periods, so there was no uproar over them.

Once they made them core in 3E and gave them excellent stats, they started to be controversial.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Rapiers were suitable for warfare in the same sense pistols were suitable for warfare WW1 till today. Both weapons have similar purpose. First and foremost, they are mark of status and authority ( officers weapons), after that, they are self defense backup weapon. Both weapons are also primarily civilian self defense tools.

They were also used by musketeers and dragoons, as the only sidearm for some non-officer cavalry, etc, so while it may mostly have been a status symbol, they were absolutely also a legitimate weapon of war.

But to the point of the thread, a civilian's self defense weapon is a perfectly reasonable D&D weapon, anyway! If we can fight dragons with farming implements we can fight them with things designed to kill.

When we look at fiction where rapier is main weapon of protagonists, it's mostly in urban, civilian or semi civilian setting, with one on one duels or small groups going at each other.

Which suits D&D, regardless of the rest of the thread.

 

[pawsplay]

In 3.x, rapiers were meh. They have crit range 18-20 which was good only if you planned to get improved critical feat or enchant it with keen property. It's only martial weapon with d6 damage you can use with finesse and get to 15-20 crit range. Regular short sword was just slightly worse than rapier (19-20 x2 crit) and it was half the price Elven thinblade and in PF1 Elven curveblade were go to weapons for dex based finesse melee characters. Thinblade was 1d8 18-20x2 finesse weapon and Curveblade was 1d10 18-20x2 two handed finesse weapon (so you got your 1.5 str to damage).

So basically, if you were a rogue, the best options were a rapier, or a more rapier-y rapier. That's part of what threw me into this chain of thought. I previously envisioned rogues using mostly short swords, or depending on the edition, maybe a long sword, or maybe they have a variant trait that gives them more martial weapons. But with 3e they turned into Errol Flynn.

Someone said rapiers started with AD&D... I looked it up, they are not in the 2e PHB. Any rapier-type weapon, presumably a 15th century transition weapon, would probably be a "long sword," two words, a Shakespearean-era designation for a typical, one-handed arming sword of any length. DMG 2.5 also does not describe rapiers, and does not mention them in the Renaissance equipment lists, only "early guns." I know they appeared in A Mighty Fortress, which had several fencing proficiencies, in fact.

Obviously, in a fantasy world, this comes down to preference, but from an aesthetic standpoint, most of the weapons are 12th to 15th century, not modern, like a rapier. Flintlock guns (barely) predate the rapier. I've seen anime shows where they have warriors and mages and dragons and such, but they also have bubble tea and cat clocks, which I am fine with as it's own thing, but I don't think of as the usual genre for D&D. But maybe I've just gotten too old, and rapiers and flying ships and clockwork cannons are pretty standard for this type of fantasy now.

 

[Azzy]

So basically, if you were a rogue, the best options were a rapier, or a more rapier-y rapier. That's part of what threw me into this chain of thought. I previously envisioned rogues using mostly short swords, or depending on the edition, maybe a long sword, or maybe they have a variant trait that gives them more martial weapons. But with 3e they turned into Errol Flynn.

Someone said rapiers started with AD&D... I looked it up, they are not in the 2e PHB.

They were first introduced in The Complete Fighter's Handbook in 1989, and appear subsequently in other products over the years.