D&D General The Renewing Charm of the Old School Play Experience

[Snarf Zagyg]

We rarely ignored the rules - some homebrew magic and monsters was about the extent - some of those 1e treasure hoards were extreme. We were just kids with unlimited time and we would grind hard, and we sure weren’t alone in the 80’s. I think G1-G3 had a couple of million gp in cash and multiple rings of wishes between them and some judges guild adventures had some pretty crazy gear. Hence my question about what game and what edition the OP was playing. We also played adventures where we lost plenty of PCs but the ones that finished ended up pretty well off. But as I say I think there is a difference between actual 1e and what is classed as an OSR style game. I haven’t played 5 Torches Deep.

So, I don't mean to pick on you. But IME, there is a vast gulf between people who played 1e because they picked it up as kids and played it with friends (often in isolation), and those who didn't.

Let's look back on the original post that I comment on-

I played some crazy monty haul 1st edition stuff back in the day. Girdle of storm giant strength & Hammer of Thunderbolts, a ring of multiple (not just 3 how passe) wishes, battling hundreds of ogre magi, a flying throne of the gods, killed Vecna, Kas, I think I even killed Satan who was hiding in the bottom of a storm giants cloud castle One time. We went to hell and back (killed tiamat) I got a ring that allowed me 6 actions a round and a staff that fired white fire (Thomas Covenant rip off). But I never got as crazy as some others I heard of. The ring of +200hp and the stone of taking 1/5th Damage? The gauntlets of annihilation (like a sphere but you could wear them). Wack a doo!

Let's go through this, with each claim noted-

I played some crazy monty haul 1st edition stuff back in the day.
Good! So we agree that you this is "Monty Haul" game.

Girdle of storm giant strength & Hammer of Thunderbolts
The Girdle/Gauntlet/Hammer was well-known to be the single most powerful weapon combination at the time. So while this is within the rules, it is also the most powerful thing allowed by the RAW.

a ring of multiple (not just 3 how passe) wishes
Yes, there was a ring that contained 2-8 wishes, but it stated the following: "If players are greedy and grasping, be sure to 'crock' them. Interpret their wording exactly, twist the wording, or simply rule the request is beyond the power of the magic. In any case, the wish is used up, whether or not (or how) the wish was granted. "

a flying throne of the gods
The most notable feature of the Throne of the Gods was that it was immovable. In addition, the reason artifacts had issues was because of the major malevolent powers; the Throne (which did not move) had two, not to mention the side effects and smaller malevolent powers.

killed Vecna, Kas, I think I even killed Satan
Vecna and Kas never had stats and were only briefly referenced (for the artifacts) in 1e. "Satan," of course, did not exist in 1e.

I got a ring that allowed me 6 actions a round
There was prtty much nothing in AD&D that would allow free actions; 6 free actions was unheard of, and would (when combined with the way AD&D is already built) completely destroy the game, even more than "+200hp". Free actions were so .... anathema that even using haste or a potion of speed caused a year of aging.

This is not to be negative toward your gaming experience; it was not uncommon for some people to twist the gamerules to make it more a power-fantasy than it would be, usually when inexperienced DMs would hand out ridiculous treasure (such as the hammer/girdle/gauntlet combo), ignoring important rules (throne of gods doesn't move, artifacts do really bad things), or just handing out items that they create that break the game. But that's not really playing the game anywhere close to within the rules.

And I very much disagree with your assertion that 1e is not within the OSR; you can play OD&D as a powertrip if you're handing out these items, too.

 

[Mark Hope]

"Satan," of course, did not exist in 1e.

He was statted out in Dragon #28. So he's an unofficial member

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

He was statted out in Dragon #28. So he's an unofficial member

The Politics of Hell .... that was a different time, indeed.

And it was the cover article!!!!! Two or three years later .... dang.

 

[Monayuris]

I enjoy the old school style play experience.

My favorite elements of old school play.

1. My choices directly impact my success or failure. I don't have a massive number of powers or abilities or rules mechanics to fall back on if I mess up. Mistakes have greater consequences. I have to put a lot more thought and consideration into the choices I make. This makes me feel more connected to my character. I feel like when I play old school games, I am thinking as if I am that character in the dungeon. In more modern games, I feel like I'm piloting a shell that is representing the character.

2. Mapping the dungeon. I love mapping. The idea that I, myself, am responsible for my character not getting lost. Mapping allows me to get a feel for the dungeon and anticipate areas of exploration. Figuring out where to explore based on the map. Also being able to lead the party out of the dungeon when low on resources. Mapping is a player skill that also directly connects me with my character.

3. Henchmen and hirelings. As my character gains experience and wealth, some of that goes into hiring retainers. My character becomes more than just a single entity, it becomes an collection of heroes under one banner. They expand my options in the game (if I'm running a magic user, a fighter retainer allows me to get in on the melee action). The interactions with retainers create interesting character development. Sometimes its fun to run a retainer in a low level game.

4. Monsters that have save or die poisons, or level drain or can only be hit my magic weapons. I am a big fan of these mechanics. Because they force me to think carefully about monster encounters. Some creatures can't be defeated by brute-force methods. You may have to think out side the box and come up with a different means of attack. It forces me to think about the environment and how to use it to my advantage (I can't damage that wight, but could I lure it into a pit trap?). It adds variety and the unexpected.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Also, besides death, there were a ton of monsters whose real purpose was to present a risk to said accumulation. Rust monsters and all those creatures that destroyed your gear were massive threats. And one could also include level-draining undead with creatures that can undo months, years of progress with a single character.

Back in the day (and keep in mind that my gaming group was pretty young when we were playing 1e), I was very cautious in my use of these sorts of threats. Because you've never seen someone get so salty as when deep in the dungeon they've just had their favorite magic sword destroyed and then gotten level-drained by some unquiet spirit. And yes, I might have done that once, when I must have been feeling surly. You know what you did, Dirk the Ranger.

I think is an oft-ignored aspect of OSR play. It's not that the characters had less power, it's that the power wasn't available as a player-choice driven mechanic. It was acquired through play and mostly random. It helps reinforce the idea of cautious play because if the character dies, there's no guarantee that you'll get anywhere near the same amount or type of power you've already required.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Also, besides death, there were a ton of monsters whose real purpose was to present a risk to said accumulation.

....and item saving throws. A blast of fiery dragon breath, a fireball, or even a long fall could destroy a lot of your equipment.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah this is something it feels like a number of OSR games either forget or attempt to retcon. Even looking at TSR-published adventures, or just rolling on, say, 2E treasure charts normally, the amount of magic items that appear is quite staggering compared to 5E.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

Magic items - that the player doesn't necessarily control the rate and-or pace of acquisition of - are great!

Even better if it's a more easy come, easy go type of system; where all that neat stuff you picked up last adventure just got melted by a dragon's breath - but now you've killed the dragon and its hoard has a bunch of shiny new tinker toys...

As you say, very often an older-edition NPC will often have magic armour, a magic weapon (or two!) and may well be packing potions and/or other magic items to boot.

At what level?

For 4th-5th level, this is fine. But that's a very rich 2nd-level and a pauper relative to most 9th-levels, when compared to typical long-standing PCs.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

There was at one point on rpg.net a loooong thread where a guy recapped every session he ran white box (I think) RAW, and dice rolls in the open. It was a pretty awesome read. I wish i could find the link...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You say this like it's a bad thing.

Oh no, I loved it. I just dislike OSR games which pretend magic items are like these super-rare things and you only find rubbish ones. That was absolutely not how older editions worked. People were dragging around portable holes so full of magic items that the whole party should probably have been checking for magical radiation poisoning. And that wasn't even Monty Haul. That was running legit TSR adventures (and random encounters using the appropriate treasure tables - often basically very little for roaming monsters who have lairs).

For 4th-5th level, this is fine. But that's a very rich 2nd-level and a pauper relative to most 9th-levels, when compared to typical long-standing PCs.

Hahahahaha yes exactly.

 

[Lanefan]

Oh no, I loved it. I just dislike OSR games which pretend magic items are like these super-rare things and you only find rubbish ones. That was absolutely not how older editions worked. People were dragging around portable holes so full of magic items that the whole party should probably have been checking for magical radiation poisoning. And that wasn't even Monty Haul. That was running legit TSR adventures (and random encounters using the appropriate treasure tables - often basically very little for roaming monsters who have lairs).

One thing it seems is often forgotten about TSR-era adventures is that while loads of magic items were placed in many published modules, the general expectation was that only some of them would for sure be found, along with a random smattering of others depending where the party went and-or how thoroughly they searched once there.

Three parties could play through the same module and come out with three quite different treasury lists and total values.

I've seen this in play countless times. It's rare indeed that I can look back at an adventure and think "yeah, they totally cleaned that place out". Usually IME on a typical dungeon-crawl-style adventure they come out value-wise with about 3/4 of what's in there; more if they're really diligent and-or very little of the treasure is well-hidden, less if they go totally goal-oriented and make it a fast get-in-get-it-done-get-out trip.

Contrast this with 4e-5e module design and expectations, where items and >>shudder<< "treasure parcels" are (almost always) only placed where they're guaranteed to be found.