The Revision Right Under our Noses...

[Remathilis]

Well I thought a 40d6 Disintergrate Sounded familiar...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20030105a

Epic Insights by... ANDY COLLINS!!!

Disintegrate: On a failed save, this spell deals 20d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage per caster level, with no upper limit to its damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 or fewer hit points, the target is disintegrated, as described in the spell.

And in case it wasn't obvious already

Limited Harm and Heal Effects

Few spells in the game see as much heated discussion as these two. Much like the save or die effects listed above, these spells continue to get more and more powerful as their targets gain levels (and hit points).

If your group isn't satisfied with the ever-escalating power of these spells, consider changing them to deal (or cure) 10 hit points per caster level, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level. (In the case of harm, the spell can't reduce the target below 1 hit point.) This allows the spells to retain their role as extraordinarily potent damage-dealing (or damage-curing) effects, while limiting them from wiping out or restoring several hundred hit points in a single touch.

Along the same lines, the heal mount spell would cure 10 hit points per caster level, to a maximum of 100 hit points at 10th level (since it's a lower-level spell than heal). Mass heal would have a maximum of 250 hit points cured at 25th level.

So... What does that hold for some other spells?

Destruction: Instead of simply destroying the target on a failed save, this spell deals 20d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage per caster level, with no upper limit to its damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 or fewer hit points, the target is destroyed utterly, as described in the spell.

Finger of Death: On a failed save, this spell deals 20d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage per caster level, with no upper limit to its damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 or fewer hit points, the target is slain.

Implosion: Each target that fails its save against this spell suffers 20d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage per caster level, with no upper limit to its damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 or fewer hit points, the target is killed, as described in the spell.

Prismatic Sphere, and so on: The green (poison) layer (or ray) deals 20d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage per caster level on a failed save, with no upper limit to its damage. If this damage reduces the target to 0 or fewer hit points, the target is killed, as described in the spell.

Slay Living: See finger of death.

Wail of the Banshee: See implosion.

Check out the REST of the article for more possible limits to spells and metamagic...

 

[EricNoah]

Check out the REST of the article for more possible limits to spells and metamagic...

Hey, you're quite the detective! Thanks for the tip.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Yeah, I knew about this since I have, uh, issues with how the ELH handles itself in some places. That's the first thing I thought of when I heard 40d6, but it doesn't quite match up with what the Epic Insights column proposes.

I wonder if all the save or die spells have been changed to save or be hurt spells? Makes "imprisonment" type spells (Maze, temporal stasis, imprisonment for example) much more valuable, assuming they have not been changed.

 

[zorlag]

-

Well, you can toss Empower or Maximize now on those save or dies and make it extremely likely that the targets kicks the bucket if he fails his save. Only thing that these won't destroy outright are Dragons or some other huge beasties.

Z.

 

[Al]

Two problems:
1. Disintegrate is now a pure combat spell! It now has no strategic usage.

2. It's a lame combat spell to boot.

It now takes *14* Disintegrates to get through a 10' stone cube...each Disintegrate can only get through an average 9" of stone (given 140 damage and stone with 15 hps per inch)- and that's cast at 20th level.

In terms of combat, Disintegrate is now really lame. At 11th level, that's 31d6 on a failed save, 5d6 on a pass. Since you have to make a RTA *on top* of that, wizards are now going to have a really tough time. Assuming a 50/50 chance to make the save, and a 60% chance to make the RTA in the first place (remember that 11th level wizards with 13 Dex only have +6 to hit), then average aggregate damage is a massive 40 points. Now, compare and contrast with a raging barbarian with a greataxe attacking three times...

 

[Argent Silvermage]

Two problems:
1. Disintegrate is now a pure combat spell! It now has no strategic usage.

2. It's a lame combat spell to boot.

It now takes *14* Disintegrates to get through a 10' stone cube...each Disintegrate can only get through an average 9" of stone (given 140 damage and stone with 15 hps per inch)- and that's cast at 20th level.

In terms of combat, Disintegrate is now really lame. At 11th level, that's 31d6 on a failed save, 5d6 on a pass. Since you have to make a RTA *on top* of that, wizards are now going to have a really tough time. Assuming a 50/50 chance to make the save, and a 60% chance to make the RTA in the first place (remember that 11th level wizards with 13 Dex only have +6 to hit), then average aggregate damage is a massive 40 points. Now, compare and contrast with a raging barbarian with a greataxe attacking three times...

That damage may just be against Living Beings. It may work like before on inanimate mater.

 

[BryonD]

That damage may just be against Living Beings. It may work like before on inanimate mater.

This may be a very good speculation.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I personally love these new "mega damage" spells as opposed to save or die spells.

 

[Henry]

Add those to my list of sacred cows I don't like for anyone to touch the udders of.

If we're going that route, we might as well make the hold person/monster spells do DEX reductions like ray of enfeeblement does strength, we might as well make time stop allow opponents a saving throw for every extra round the time stopper gains, to see if they get one too, and we might as well give all damaging spells a fortitude save to convert their damage to subdual damage instead.

I agreed with older changes like removing system shock rolls, but there is such a thing as leaving the training wheels on the bike for too long. I'll probably use them to see if I like them, but If I don't I'm tossing 'em.

 

[cable]

Two problems:
1. Disintegrate is now a pure combat spell! It now has no strategic usage.

2. It's a lame combat spell to boot.

It now takes *14* Disintegrates to get through a 10' stone cube...each Disintegrate can only get through an average 9" of stone (given 140 damage and stone with 15 hps per inch)- and that's cast at 20th level.

In terms of combat, Disintegrate is now really lame. At 11th level, that's 31d6 on a failed save, 5d6 on a pass. Since you have to make a RTA *on top* of that, wizards are now going to have a really tough time. Assuming a 50/50 chance to make the save, and a 60% chance to make the RTA in the first place (remember that 11th level wizards with 13 Dex only have +6 to hit), then average aggregate damage is a massive 40 points. Now, compare and contrast with a raging barbarian with a greataxe attacking three times...

So don't use 3.5e. Don't think just because WoTC brought out 3.5e you MUST immediately go out and buy it. If you're happy with your 3.0e with your houserules, I don't see why you need to shell $$$ out for 3.5e particularly if you don't like the changes invovled.

If you must play 3.5e then don't play arcane casters. Surely it would be more fun to play the Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger who can do more damage in 1 round than the arcane caster can manage with their best spells. As their class abilities are nerfed nobody will miss the arcane spellcaster in the party anyway. Take the hint 3.5e doesn't like spells that have strategic uses because it would be too unbalancing for your PC to blast through barriers that you're not suppose to penetrate unless you follow the narrowly construed plot of the adventure.

If you must play an arcane caster then don't choose Disintegrate. An empowered empowered magic missile (5th lvl) does an average of 35 pts of dmg with no miss chance, no save and no elemental immunity/resistance can reduce.

If you must play 3.5e AND play an arcane caster AND choose disintegrate then you deserve all the frustration and boredom you get.