The Revision Right Under our Noses...

[Tzarevitch]

Two problems:
1. Disintegrate is now a pure combat spell! It now has no strategic usage.

2. It's a lame combat spell to boot.

It now takes *14* Disintegrates to get through a 10' stone cube...each Disintegrate can only get through an average 9" of stone (given 140 damage and stone with 15 hps per inch)- and that's cast at 20th level.

In terms of combat, Disintegrate is now really lame. At 11th level, that's 31d6 on a failed save, 5d6 on a pass. Since you have to make a RTA *on top* of that, wizards are now going to have a really tough time. Assuming a 50/50 chance to make the save, and a 60% chance to make the RTA in the first place (remember that 11th level wizards with 13 Dex only have +6 to hit), then average aggregate damage is a massive 40 points. Now, compare and contrast with a raging barbarian with a greataxe attacking three times...

Actually, unless that is a magically treated wall of stone or is somehow attended by someone it doesn't get a save.

Tzarevitch

 

[Psion]

I personally love these new "mega damage" spells as opposed to save or die spells.

Not I. Who wants to roll and add up 40 dice?

 

[Renshai]

Honestly, after a couple of years of killing of PCs with save or die spells I prefer this approach. I don't like working that hard and then taking it all away because of a single roll of the dice.


I think though, that if you are going to use this method that Ressurection spells should be a less common and maybe more expensive.

Just my opinion though...
Ren

 

[D'karr]

Man let's not get our panties in a bunch over this.

The changes are to several spells. Let's say 30 spells get changed. What percentage of the overall spell lists is that? Not a very large percentage I believe.

Once the Revised SRD is published, which from what we've been told will be at the same time as the revision is released, go to the SRD website and download all the spells. Then take your trusty word processor and cut out all the spells that have been (in you opinion) nerfed. Then replace them with the older version (again from the SRD) or your own revised version. Make a printout of this small change for your campaign use and voila - you're done. You don't even have to do hardly any retyping.

From what I see the change to polymorph, harm, heal and haste were probably needed. The others I'll playtest and see if they fit what I want from my campaign. If they don't then I'll revise them as necessary. The buff spells I'll alter, the save or die, probably not.

This is not very hard.

 

[KDLadage]

Not I. Who wants to roll and add up 40 dice?

Then don't. The statistical probability of significant variation from the mean in 40d6 is very, very low.

Thus, 40d6 is, for all intent and purpose, 40x3.5=140 damage (plus or minus about 3 points or so for standard deviation). Hense, I would handle these spells as this:

Roll only for the last 6 dice.

Thus, 40d6 becomes 116 + 6d6 damage. This allows for some variation, keeps the number of dice rulled down to a minimum and does not significantly alter the statistical probabilities involved.

 

[Corinth]

Or you could just spread the die-rolling around. Let each player roll a portion of the damage. For your average five-man group (a GM and four players), that's 8d6. Each players makes his roll, and the GM totals the results. Apply as specified by the spell description and get on with the game.

 

[Remathilis]

Yeah, I knew about this since I have, uh, issues with how the ELH handles itself in some places. That's the first thing I thought of when I heard 40d6, but it doesn't quite match up with what the Epic Insights column proposes.

I wonder if all the save or die spells have been changed to save or be hurt spells? Makes "imprisonment" type spells (Maze, temporal stasis, imprisonment for example) much more valuable, assuming they have not been changed.

My opinion on how the Epic Insights/3.5 link works...

1.) Basic Mechanic utilized for Epic Insights, with aim for Epic play.
2.) Basic Mechanic then gets ported to 3.5, but effectively capped at 20, due to the 20 level limit.
3.) Pazio uses the 3.5 updated disintergrate for an epic character. (25th level sorcerer). However, the Epic Insight article is a variant rule (not official errata) so they cap the spell at level 20 for the official module, rather than use "unofficial" rules in an official work.
Addendum: The die cap for the revised spell might be 20 anyway, since the Epic Insights column came out much earlier than the Dungeon stats. We might be seeing one of those "not final" changes.

I'm not relishing pulling out 40d6, but any reason to buy more dice is a good one for me. (Hey, that could be thier Slogan: "D&D 3.5, time to buy more dice." )

 

[Conaill]

Roll only for the last 6 dice.

Thus, 40d6 becomes 116 + 6d6 damage. This allows for some variation, keeps the number of dice rulled down to a minimum and does not significantly alter the statistical probabilities involved.

Even better, replace each 10d6 with 25+d20. Fairly easy to remember, and it will match the standard deviation a lot better. So 40d6 would become 100+4d20.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

FYI reference the Epic Insights article, Andy posted today on his boards that though the article gives the direction that some of the spells take, not all of the ideas in that article made it into 3.5.

Unfortunately, he wasn't so kind as to specify which ...

 

[Felon]

Add those to my list of sacred cows I don't like for anyone to touch the udders of.

STEAK! STEAK! GET YOUR NICE JUICY STEAK RIGHT HERE! FRESH OFF THE GRILL!

we might as well make time stop allow opponents a saving throw for every extra round the time stopper gains

Now that's a good idea!

I'll probably use them to see if I like them, but If I don't I'm tossing 'em.

Even better idea!