D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Helldritch]

Why demons, devils and evil gods?
Let me ask you another question. Why have Apple, Android, PCs and so and so?

Simple, it is a matter of personnal choice and preferences. Khali was never seen as a good godess but she was worshipped nonetheless.

People worship evil deities so that these evil entities DO NOT put their portfolio to bear on them. Nerull is the god of death is not worshipped by the populace because he well liked. Incabulos, God of plague, is not popular, but the average commoner will worship him to placate him.

But evil priest will say...
Evil priests are misguided individuals that worship evil deities for the power these deities can offer. Be it for revenge or some darker motivations, these priests need the powers that evil deities can offer. And they make great villains.

And beside personnal preferences, in some setting and in the old Legend and Lore, nothing prevents deities and lower plane creatures to coexist. Lloth is also a demoness and commands demons. Bane has devil serving him (1ed FR box set). So nothing is truly redundant but we do have overlaps and is good. After all, evil must have some reasons to turn upon itself. And one set of creature stepping on the claimed territories of an other is quite a good reasons to start a war.

edit: Saw quite a few typos. Thanks a lot Auto corrector...

 

[Laurefindel]

Part of the issue is that D&D mixes all kinds of polytheistic religious concepts (multiple gods of different specific things) with a good dose of judo-christianism (hell and heavens with devils and angels, God as saviour and salvation of humankind) and a side order of outsider entities called gods for lack of better words (incomprehensible chtulhu-esque far realms things), all of which overlap on the same principles.

Evil gods existed in polytheistic religions because they represented (and were sometimes the source of) the multiple facets of human life, including all the evil s**t humans are capable of. Strife exist, therefore some god(s) must exist to represent it and cause humans to fight. Thing is, few people would dedicated their whole life to the sole worship of an "evil god"; people prayed to avoid their wrath, to favour them in a specific endeavour, or to curse their enemies; not so much in religious adoration of what they represent (which tends to be the D&D way).

Single places or domains like hell where ALL evils are is pretty much unique to judo-christianity, which excludes multitudes of gods and discourages worship of idols of specific things (kind of, old habits die hard). God(s) that actually wish you well no matter what is a pretty unique concept too.

Then you have Chtulhu mythos that suggest that good and evil, heavens and hell, none of that exist; only alien being and their primordial representation of reproduction and entropy and whatnot.

All of those are hard to reconcile without overlapping

 

[DEFCON 1]

You might be interested in seeing this discussion as well: Are evil gods necessary.

Heh... I had remembered posting in that thread back then as an earlier mirror to this one-- but had completely forgotten that I was the one who started that thread.

And based on that thread and what I posted here... I see my feelings on the subject still have not changed. LOL!

 

[jgsugden]

D&D is an RPG - a role playing game. Characters, and NPCs, including Gods and Archfiends, play a role in a story. Figure out the story and most of this takes care of itself.

How and why did a being end up as a God? How and why did they end up being evil? How and why do people worship the sinister thing with which they are associated?

Archfiends have different stories, goals and motivations. How did they end up in their position of power? How do they hold it? What sets a God of Tyranny apart from an Archfiend - and what sets the Archfiends apart from each other?

Figuring out questions like these gives you a deeper campaign setting.

Generally speaking: In my homebrew, the Gods do not plan and strategize in terms of Good and Evil. They are individual beings with their own goals and desires - and having people worship them grants them the power to pursue those goals. The faith of free willed beings is a source of vast power for Divine beings.

As a means to an end, the Gods need ways to encourage people to give them power through faith, and the concepts of Good and Evil are an easy way to sell the stories that generate faith. It is a simplification that is accessible to the masses.

Some of these Divine beings honestly seek the betterment of all, but they have to make sure they are worshipped in order to have the power to make those good things happen - lest only Dark Powers have the power to shape the realms. As PCs advance, they discover more and more that the Gods are less mysterious than they thought - and they start to see them more like politicians than magic.

In comparison, Archdevils and other non-divine powers get power through deals with mortals. It isn't faith they seek, it is the power drawn from your soul, especially if you're one of the special folk out there that can change the world with your abilities. The Archfiends interact with people quite differently. They don't need you to like them or support them - they need you to concede to them and submit to them. They want to treat you like a battery, but you have to give them the option to do so. Your soul is a commodity to them, and your free will is just a problem they have to solve to get that commodity. Of course, your soul isn't the only thing you have to offer Archdevils, fiends, etc...

In D&D skill terms, the Gods tend to use persuasion (though not exclusively) while Archfiends use intimidation and deception more often (although persuasion is also a tool they can use).

 

[SkidAce]

Part of the issue is that D&D mixes all kinds of polytheistic religious concepts (multiple gods of different specific things) with a good dose of judo-christianism (hell and heavens with devils and angels, God as saviour and salvation of humankind) and a side order of outsider entities called gods for lack of better words (incomprehensible chtulhu-esque far realms things), all of which overlap on the same principles.

You say issue, I say feature!

 

[Scribe]

For the record, I wasn't suggesting promoting the demon princes or archdevils to gods. I am suggesting removing the evil gods whose portfolios overlap with those of the demon princes and archdevils and such.

I think as noted a few times in the thread this is perfectly valid, but it just depends on the role gods have, the religious beliefs of your world's people's, how the cosmology works, that kind of thing.

I think it's a pretty critical piece of world building though.

 

[Helpful NPC Thom]

That got me thinking: what is the purpose / role of evil gods in D&D? Why do we have gods of (un)death, murder, strife, disease, tyranny, slaughter, etc? Especially when you consider that D&D also has demons, devils and other foul entities that embody and promote all of those things. Why the overlap?

Because D&D is a silly game, and an evil god provides a convenient foil for the heroes to strive against. The best gods are Neutral, which allows flexibility for their worship. St. Cuthbert, for instance, is one of my favorites because he can have Lawful Good servants who uphold justice and virtue, and he can have Lawful Evil servants who are tyrannical and cruel.

Even Sauron has his redeeming qualities:

He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

 

[Umbran]

For the record, I wasn't suggesting promoting the demon princes or archdevils to gods. I am suggesting removing the evil gods whose portfolios overlap with those of the demon princes and archdevils and such.

That's perfectly reasonable. In fact, setting up a gods vs demons dichotomy can make a fine cosmology - precedent exists in the Norse gods vs giants and Ancient Greek gods vs titans.

The game, as published, has all these things specifically so you can pick and choose like that.

 

[Voadam]

In the 1e Manual of the Planes there is mixes in the planes.

In the Abyss demons serve some gods as servants. Page 102-3:

"The Chinese Powers Tou Mu and Lu Yueh make their home in a realm called Feng-Tu. Feng-Tu appears as a mighty citadel that rises up a forked branch of the Styx called How Nai-ho. This branch can be reached by Charon and the charonadaemons. The citadel of Feng-Tu is entered via Kuei-Men-Kuan, the gate of the demons, which is large enough to permit elephantine behemoths to pass through easily. The god of epidemics and the goddess of the northstar hold sway over a household of manes and demons.
The lesser god Kali controls her entire layer, a realm of jagged peaks and blood-red tropical vegetation. The black earth mother maintains a number of abodes in this realm, decaying temples overgrown with scarlet vines and crimson flowers. Her servants are demons and chaotic evil rakshasas."

In the Nine Hells page 111:
"The true relationship between lawful evil Powers and the devils is unknown, for neither side is volunteering any information."

"Hecate of the Greeks and Inanna of the Sumerians have adjacent realms in Phlegethos, the fourth layer, with suitable conduits to reach those worlds where they are venerated. Hecate tends to be more lawful than evil, sending her quota of devils out in an organized fashion to punish particular misdeeds. Inanna is the reverse, more evil than lawful. She delights in the fickle nature that sending too many (or not enough) evil servants into battle may bring. The two goddesses' relationships with Belial are unknown, though the arch-devil has been known to call on both their courts."

Even Modrons are noted as working for others, page 85: "While all modrons are apparently vassals of Primus, the base modrons (lesser castes) can be found throughout the realms of Nirvana acting as servants for other realms."

Archons are noted as working for their superiors and Greater Powers, page 88.

"This is the domain of the Jovarian archons—more are found here than on any other plane. A rumored council of ruling archons, whose existence has not been proven, sits in an unending ziggurat in this layer."

and

"Archons are the common creatures of the Seven Heavens. They joyously perform the duties called upon them by their superiors and the Greater Powers. Little is known of archons, as their activities usually are more beneficial and subtle than the blunderings of the lower plane races."

Similar to the demons and devils some gods in 1e have archon servants.

"The Chinese gods Chung Kuel and Kuan Yin make their homes on the fourth layer, occupying adjacent realms that span the length of the mountaintops. Followers of Chung Kuel seek out the god of truth and testing for knowledge, while those of Kuan Yin for ask for peaceful mitigation of troubles and blessing in childbirth. These gods are served by archons and spirit-folk."

and on page 89

"Of the lesser powers, Ebisu of the Japanese mythos, the deity of good luck, is a native of Lunia (the first heaven). He often greets travelers in the guise of a poor fisherman with a good catch from the pier. (Ebisu also often rescues those who are foolish enough to drown in the ocean.) Girru of the Babylonian mythos makes his abode in the second layer. He leads a troop of followers into battle with evil. Both of these lesser gods are served by archons."

 

[Helldritch]

That's perfectly reasonable. In fact, setting up a gods vs demons dichotomy can make a fine cosmology - precedent exists in the Norse gods vs giants and Ancient Greek gods vs titans.

The game, as published, has all these things specifically so you can pick and choose like that.

Fully agree with you on that one. And might I add

This is why D&D is such a great game. It is not limited by one setting but it includes everyone of them. All you have to do is to decide what will be in YOUR D&D. It is not the world of Conan, yet it can be. It is not world of Robin Hobbs yet it can be. It can be anything you want and like and as such you have to take a pick on what you incorporate. Not every world has goblins, orcs, dragons or whatever. You get to decide what to put in YOUR D&D.