D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Doug McCrae

Legend
Again, I'm not proposing turning demons and devils into gods. I'm going for more of a Judeo-Christian "God vs the Devil" feel, rather than D&D's usual polytheistic approach.
One potential problem is that in Christianity, God is much more powerful than the Devil. D&D otoh presents a dualistic world where either the forces of good and evil -- terrestrial and cosmic -- are evenly matched or evil has the advantage. Admittedly, within Christianity there have been varying perceptions of the extent of Satan's power and influence on earth. 2 Corinthians 4:4 describes the Devil as "the god of this world."

In a world where Christianity is the true religion polytheistic faiths could still exist. Their worshippers might be deceived by demons, as Christians have claimed.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Why did Greece have Ares? There was no need for multiple gods of war, as Athena covered that space quite nicely and was definitely better-liked than Ares. He has no other major qualifications for relevance, other than having been born earlier than Athena was. The other gods, even his own father, openly dislike him, with Zeus even openly telling him in the Illiad that if he were the son of some other god, he would've been punted from Olympus long ago. The only deity shown to have positive relations with him is Aphrodite, and the exposure of their affair resulted in ridicule for both of them, so i doubt that lasted. He's the god of bloodlust, slaughter, needless violence, and indiscriminate killing on the battlefield. He's pretty much as close as you can get to an actually "evil" deity in Greek myth, portrayed with effectively zero redeeming qualities until he was syncretized with the FAR more dignified and diverse Roman equivalent, Mars, who was an agricultural deity and not NEARLY as closely linked to mindless slaughter.

But we don't even need to go that far from ancient Greece to find another real-world "god of evil." Just a short ways to the east, in Asia Minor, you have the Avestan/Zoroastrian tradition, which is specifically near-dualist (depending on time and place; sometimes Angra Mainyu is presented as almost but not quite Ahura Mazda's equal-and-opposite, other times Ahura Mazda is objectively superior in all ways and Angra Mainyu is foolishly wasting his time trying to win an impossible battle.) You also have the once quite widespread but now defunct Manichaeism, which is expressly dualist, with an eternal World of Light led by a good ultimate deity and an eternal World of Darkness led by an eternal evil one, with all of creation being just a byproduct of the constant wars of aggression perpetrated by the Dark against the Light.

So...sometimes, yes, you really can have actual deities that most people despise or fear, that are "on the prayer roll" to some extent and which are recognized for their power even if not for any positive qualities they might have. D&D definitely makes a lot more "evil god" type entities than is typical for most real-world religions. However, it also makes those gods very personable and often literally actually human beings who ascended to godhood, rather than demigods by birth who shed their mortality or gods who forgot their status and regained it, which is similarly unprecedented in mythology. So, given that the nature and process of godhood is already quite a bit different from how ancient peoples understood the divine, I don't really know that this particular divergence stands out as needing change, unless you're proposing to heavily rewrite how divinity works in a D&D context (as, for example, Rich Baker did with Eberron's deities.)
 

pukunui

Legend
I don't really know that this particular divergence stands out as needing change, unless you're proposing to heavily rewrite how divinity works in a D&D context (as, for example, Rich Baker did with Eberron's deities.)
Yes, I have already stated that I am taking the Eberron route and making it so no one knows if the gods are real or not -- it's entirely a matter of faith. I will probably make it so no one really knows if the archfiends exist either. Not sure yet.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Yes, I have already stated that I am taking the Eberron route and making it so no one knows if the gods are real or not -- it's entirely a matter of faith. I will probably make it so no one really knows if the archfiends exist either. Not sure yet.
In that case: your "evil gods" become Ares-equivalents, or something like the Aztec view of why blood and heart sacrifices were necessary. That is, the world itself is a Lovecraftian horror of the "that is not dead which can forever lie" variety, and blood sacrifices keep it completely asleep so it doesn't start randomly eating people. And then the Sun is literally running away from the Moon because if it gets completely eaten by the Moon, the world will end, and the best fuel for keeping the Sun going is human hearts because they are precious and powerful.

Simply put, evil deities become targets of propitiation rather than worship per se. Stalwart Hades and Dread Persephone were not so much "worshipped" as "deeply feared" and "referred to by epithets because if you say their names they might notice you." Poseidon presents something of a middle-of-the-road deity, where people who only needed to travel by sea would often offer propitiative sacrifices to him (because the sea is vast and scary), while people who sailed or fished for a living would outright worship him as their patron.
 

HaroldTheHobbit

Adventurer
Interesting thoughts. But I want evil gods in my game, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I may be suffering from severe grognarditis, but evil gods is part of the D&D cosmology that I know and love since I started playing in the early eighties. Evil gods feed divine power to evil high priests leading evil cults.

Secondly, in real life I'm an atheist filled to the brim with poststructuralism and social constructivism, where everything is subjective perspectives, moral grays and evaluations. In D&D good and evil, law and chaos are real - those and other philosophical concepts can and will manifest in tangible forms, as gods and creatures. That is a big part of why I enjoy D&D.

Now, I have great fun playing other games too, with different perspectives on gods, or no gods at all. But for D&D I want my evil gods!
 

Nevertheless, I feel my point stands: even if D&D has had archangels / angelic princes in the past, they are virtually unheard of today. They don't play a big part in the grand scheme of the multiverse, like the demon princes and archdevils (and even the princes of elemental evil) do.
The reason we don't hear about them is 5e has so far not chosen to present the races they are the "arch"s of. We have the LE devils with their Lords of the Nine and other archdevils, the CE demons with their various Princes, and the NE Yugoloths with a tiny bit mentioned about some of their high-ups. We also have the LN modrons with Primus, and the CN slaadi with someone whose name escapes me but is statted up in 5e somewhere.

What we don't have are the 6 or 7 varieties of LG archons of Mount Celestia to be ruled by the 7 or so individual arch-archons, the 7 or so varieties of NG guardinals of Elysium to be guided by the 7 individual arch-guardinals, or the 7 varieties of CG eladrin (not to be confused with the eladrin of 4e and 5e--these eladrin were the celestial "angelic" equivalent to demons, not a type of fey or elf) to be led by their individual arch-eladrin (might only have been 3 of those).

So, yeah, it does stand out, because they chose to leave out that cool and interesting depth that could bring more sense to it, and now there is a weird hole. (To be fair, they were running out of space in the MM and had to add more pages than intended or even more (including modrons) wouldn't have made the cut. Also to be fair, it's been a long time and they still haven't done it. Too bad more people aren't talking about it so they can see demand.)
 
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Sorry for the digression, but:

Traditionally one of the big pushes for more celestials is that they were summonable. While it is true there is a conjure celestial spell, it stops at CR 5, so there isn't a big reason to build up intricate hierarchies of celestials (much to my disappointment). Part of that is that celestials are good for utility as much as combat, which makes it harder to fit more combat centered celestials like archons and pre-4e eladrins into the mix (why spend a 9th level spell slot on summoning a CR 5 critter with little extra utility built in? At least unicorns are legendary....).
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Interesting thoughts. But I want evil gods in my game, for a couple of reasons.

You don't need to justify it. I understand.

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Everyone reads Inferno, but who bothers with Paradiso?

Who is the protagonist of Paradise Lost?

Do you watch Jaws because of the scenic New England setting (okay, it's supposedly a fictional town in NY, but we know the Vineyard when we see it) ... NO. Give me the shark.

Good is boring; evil ... is fun.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
One thing I was toying with in the divine realm of my setting is it's time of the day deities. Basically the god of the Sun would have 6 sons, 5 with the goddess of Change and 1 with the goddess of the Moon. They would become the main elf and orc male gods.

Midnight
Dawn
Morning
Noon
Dusk
Night
(Solar) Eclipse

Midnight and Night would be evil as evil darkness gods, unable to control the sun. Dusk is the good darkness god.. Midnight would take evil orcs under his wing and bless them with darkvision. Dusk and Night would fight over drow, Dusk taking good drow and Night evil drow.

The main conflict between the brothers, their wives, and their children is control of the Sun. They all wish to become the new sun deity as the Sun (as well and the Moon and Earth) have gone into deep slumber. They all struggle for control over the Sun's body.

Midnight and Night both encourage their priests and cults to do "block the sun" rituals. This is technically under Eclipse's purview. To use his power the other darkness deities contrort their religions to the protection of lycantropes and shifters, Eclipse's favored races.

This is before you get to Eclipse's sisters the 8 phases of the moon. All but New Moon is okay with the evil Night and Midnight and their plan for endless night as they would become the principle light deities then. The moon goddesses are very cozy with Night and Midnight (Night's wife, the Sin demon of Lust, doesn't mind) So many humans see them as evil.

Then you have (Lunar) Eclipse, the "union" of the Moon and Mother Earth. That jerk is like "why do we need light at all?" and "Oh you think darkness is your ally". Earth and Moon got drunk and spawned this nutcase who is like "Seeing things is for LOSERS!" and "Yall live in the Underdark anyway!". So he and his sister Underdark want the surface to be pitch black and are attempting to gaslight the Fungus Lord and the Jellyfish Nonbinary Leadership Figure into pacts with them for underground bioluminescence.

All and all, the evil sun, moon, and earth gods serve to display the day and night cycle and put the diurnal and nocturnal races in conflict.
 


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