The Role of the Wizard, or "How Come Billy Gets to Create a Demiplane?"

[ProfessorCirno]

Haha, yeah. Truenamers are a headache because they're broken, and I don't mean they're overpowered, I mean they literally do not function.

Binders though, staring at all those different binds and each of their powers and trying to think on how to combine them...just overwhelms me. I think Binder is the most complicated class and Artificer is the most complex, personally. The first requires a lot of pattern spotting and combo building, the second makes you become Batman where you have to be prepared for whatever is going to come up long in advance.

And, funny enough, I think the classes that require the most advance planning are...melee ones . Especially the non-ToB melee ones. Wizards can change spells, fighters can't change feats.

 

[Ariosto]

This is largely how it stopped being once you got past OD&D

No, actually it did not stop being that way after I got past OD&D.

Your claim is not in the same galaxy as even nearly for E. Gary Gygax, who wrote what was the next thing past OD&D for most people: Advanced D&D.

Ever heard of the Circle of Eight?

I've rarely seen anyone run a stable of characters in nearly 30 years of playing D&D.

I've rarely seen anyone play a monk or bard in more than 30 years of playing D&D. So what?

 

[Votan]

Great points. Mage has all powerful casters, and its OK, because EVERYONE is an all powerful caster. Ars Magica has both magi and grogs, and magic are much better than grogs. but that's ok, because each player controls both. But 1st-3rd edition D&D eally felt like "Hey, I'll be the magi, you be the grog". Which I wasnt fine with. 4th edition is the first version I've played where the traditional heroes of fantasy get a fair shake past low level.

I find, if one goes back to the oldest editions, that wizards are less of an issue. It's a lot harder to build up hit points and AC. They have a lot fewer spells. The spells that they do have are less potent (notice the lack of a teleport without error) and many problem spells don't exist yet. Spell preparation times can take days at high levels (15 minutes per spell level per spell). One hit can immediately interrupt a spell (no defensive casting or spell preparation).

Assuming reasonable numbers, it's not unlikely for a 10th level 1E Magic User to have 25 hit points. With a 16 con (unlikely) that is 45 HP (and AC is always low). There is no way to extend spells or to cast multiple spells in a round. Magic item crafting is insanely difficult and permanent magic items drain constitution (making it quite rare that a player will be able to create any important number of magic items).

Plus the fighter is leading a small army . . .

It's not a perfect system but it is a lot closer.

 

[Ariosto]

Those 3e cats screwed up a lot, I agree.

Picking up hit points by the thousand at "Wands R Us" ? LOL! Why not just answer "y" to DO YOU WANT UNLIMITED LIVES?

Going Beyond the Fields We Know: It's not just an adventure, it's a job! Actually, it's mostly a job, eh? All the cool stuff is back home at the shopping mall.

Yeah, I could go on and on in that vein. What were they thinking?

A fireball gets capped at 10d6 (35 or 17.5 damage), but a wizard gets up to 19d4+4 (avg. 56.5) hit points?

Getting tougher like that from 11th on is just the opposite of how the game used to work! (20d6 fireball for 70 or 35 damage, versus an average of 36.5 hit points and a maximum of 75)

Why?

Why was there in 3e a big giveaway to spell-casters (but especially wizards) at nearly every turn? What purpose was this supposed to serve?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'd like to point out that the point I was making was one based on narrative power, not combat power.

3e gave wizards more power combat, but wizards always reigned supreme in narrative power up until 4e.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I'll hit something that bothers me far more - narrative power.

IME, narrative power arises from a meaningful interaction with the game world, regardless of class.

Magical power has a mechanical "system" to represent it. Religious and cultural significance, political power, the ability to psychologically move NPCs - these don't.

Manipulation of the game world is not the exclusive province of magic-users through their class abilities. It arises through players recognizing the potential impact of their characters upon their environment, and then striving to effect the change they want to happen.

Does the GM need to extend opportunities to non-magic-users more thoughtfully in order to make this happen? Probably. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I find, if one goes back to the oldest editions, that wizards are less of an issue. It's a lot harder to build up hit points and AC. They have a lot fewer spells. The spells that they do have are less potent (notice the lack of a teleport without error) and many problem spells don't exist yet. Spell preparation times can take days at high levels (15 minutes per spell level per spell). One hit can immediately interrupt a spell (no defensive casting or spell preparation).

Ehhhh, yes and no. We played a TON of 2nd edition, and immediately everyone realized how broken multilclassing was, so naturally, every mage was a fighter mage hybrid. Lose 1 level to gain fighter BAB, better HP, saves etc? Sign me up! it was rare for campaigns to extend beyond the double digit MC limit anyways, so no real loss.

Plus the fighter is leading a small army . . .

Dude, we played D&D, not axis and allies. If we wanted to play a wargame, we played one without the headache of leveling up the general. The whole "fighters leading an army thing" died in the 70's with that style of play.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Those 3e cats screwed up a lot, I agree.

Picking up hit points by the thousand at "Wands R Us" ? LOL! Why not just answer "y" to DO YOU WANT UNLIMITED LIVES?

I told my 3.5 game I'd run again when they reached a compromise beyond poking each other with sticks for a few minutes after each fight. Agreed on wands of healing.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

No, actually it did not stop being that way after I got past OD&D.

Your claim is not in the same galaxy as even nearly for E. Gary Gygax, who wrote what was the next thing past OD&D for most people: Advanced D&D.

Ever heard of the Circle of Eight?

Do you really think the average group had a character stable for each player? Not trying to be antagonistic, I'm genuinely curious. Its to divergent to my experience i cant even fathom it being common. Perhaps I'm the odd man out.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

No, actually it did not stop being that way after I got past OD&D.

Your claim is not in the same galaxy as even nearly for E. Gary Gygax, who wrote what was the next thing past OD&D for most people: Advanced D&D.

Ever heard of the Circle of Eight?

Do you really think the average group had a character stable for each player? Not trying to be antagonistic, I'm genuinely curious. Its so divergent to my experience i cant even fathom it being common. Perhaps I'm the odd man out.