The Scout and ranged attacks

[BobTheNob]

There is something concerning me about the scout from HOTFK. Lets compare to the other strikers from essentials.

Ever striker has a "damage component". A way of bringing extra damage to the encounter that is consistant and sits outside of other considerations(what powers and tricks they may otherwise have). For the slayer, its Dex (+ a bit) to weapon damage, for the Heaxblade is practically same deal (albeit differing stats and apply to warlock powers) and for the theif its any basic attack you have CA with.

Now with the slayer, his bonus is to weapon damage, meaning ranged attacks as well, so his damage at range is really quite good. The hexblade has eldritch strike (bolt, whatever) which gets bonus, so its quite good, and the theif can get damage at range as long as he has CA...which is much easier for him than the rogue thanks to certain tricks.

Basically, they can include their damage component with ranged attacks. So they are all great in melee and still pretty fair at range.

Then the Scout. His "damage component" is a free attack with his offhand hand when he hits with his primary hand weapon. Different to the others, and regardless of whether you think better or worse (argument for a different thread plase) here is my problem.

The scout is a ranger, and he is to date the only striker out of essentials that cannot apply his "damage component" to ranged attacks.

Am I alone in thinking this isnt ideal?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: WotC has some obsession with dual-wielding wilderness warriors.

 

[Grimgrin]

Well the scout is a little less likely to hit since he must make another attack roll but may often inflict more damage with the free attack. Still balanced IMHO

 

[Saeviomagy]

It's simple enough to change the power such that it applies to both melee and ranged attacks, similar to the present twin strike.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Well the scout is a little less likely to hit since he must make another attack roll but may often inflict more damage with the free attack. Still balanced IMHO

In isolation, your first sentence is a good observation; but I fail to see what it has to do with the OP's concern about lack of effectiveness with ranged attacks. Did you accidentally hit Submit before you had finished composing your reply?

 

[the Jester]

I am not sure, but I suspect that it's because the scout is designed for melee while the hunter (the controller build) is designed for ranged. They're pushed into pretty specific roles, but there's no reason your scout can't use ranged attacks- they just aren't intended to be his specialty.

 

[Mengu]

Perhaps, the problem is not with the scout, but with the Slayer. I can't quite understand why the "Fighter" gets the more versatile build, while the "Ranger" gets a specialized build. Either way, it could be argued the Scout should get some sort of bonus damage on ranged attacks, but it could be equally argued that the Slayer should not get to apply his weapon talent, his Dex, and his stance (Battle Wrath/Poised Assault) to ranged attacks (all three? really?). Not that they would do this very often, but they can even be a skirmishing archer with Mobile Blade.

It's great to be awesome, but out of the box, melee-centric strikers such as Barbarians, Avengers, Monks, don't get to apply their striker feature to ranged attacks, why did the Slayer need an upper hand in awesomeness?

 

[mneme]

Actually, avengers can get the ability to apply a striker feature to their ranged attacks out of the box (by taking an appropriate feature--as out of the box as a slayer who chooses to take a high dex, since the Slayer doesn't get at-will attacks), and Monks -do- apply their striker feature to ranged attacks (though they need an edge that lets them apply at range like pointed step, the trigger is "when you hit with an attack on your turn", so if you can avoid or don't care about the OA, you can make a ranged attack while adjacent to some enemies, hit something at range, then flurry.

The barbarian... Hmm. Strength primary, so they have decent heavy thrown attacks. They can use Feral Might on ranged attacks. Ok, they can't use Rampage on ranged attacks, and the average barbarian build is going to be lousy for ranged attacks -- but that's not because one of their striker features doesn't work for ranged attacks--it's because they don't really striker feature at all, so you tend to "bake in" a striker feature in the form of weapons, feats, the extra damage in their powers, and their rages.

 

[Mengu]

Actually, avengers can get the ability to apply a striker feature to their ranged attacks out of the box (by taking an appropriate feature--as out of the box as a slayer who chooses to take a high dex, since the Slayer doesn't get at-will attacks), and Monks -do- apply their striker feature to ranged attacks (though they need an edge that lets them apply at range like pointed step, the trigger is "when you hit with an attack on your turn", so if you can avoid or don't care about the OA, you can make a ranged attack while adjacent to some enemies, hit something at range, then flurry.

Not sure what you're talking about for the Avenger feature, even though I play one (a dwarf unity avenger). If you are talking about the Bond of Censure at-will, it's rather short range (like within charging distance), and pretty pathetic damage. But you might be talking about something else I'm not thinking of. Normally (out of the box), oath of enmity only works against adjacent enemies.

For monk, again, out of the box, you cannot pick up a dagger or shuriken, and throw it at a target 10-12 squares away and expect to have striker accuracy or do striker damage.

Slayer, without any effort, is able to use a bow, gains a +1 attack, and +dex damage bonus to it. The fact that he can apply his stance bonuses is just gravy.

I'm not saying the slayer outclasses the other two in all areas, the other two classes have more interesting mobility, and numerous fun tricks such as sequestering strike, stunning palm and the like, but in the melee/range versatility department, I think the slayer got a few too many boons.

 

[Zhou Yu]

The "anti-Slayers" got to remember a few things about the Slayer.

Yes, definitely, doubling up Dexterity for damage is a great thing. I play an Elf Slayer that runs as an archer in the Encounters games, with the Fury stance (and Mobile Blade, just in case I do need the tactical ability it provides). As one can guess, on a hit with the Fury stance, I'm doing at least 15 damage (more if the warpriest gives me a Blessing of Wrath). That's great, and that sure beats the scout at ranged.

Scout's built for melee though.

And Slayer is built for melee also for MAX damage. At least in the long run. The 'archer slayer' is only really good and effective for the first few levels.

After that, you really need Strength for most of your good Powers. Power Strike works on Melee only, not ranged. You are REQUIRED to use a Greataxe or Greatsword (or the Superior versions if your DM allows) for many of your Powers later on. Many of your later Powers involve you being adjacent to an enemy (or multiples). A Slayer has absolutely no support for ranged attacks, just like the Scout.

The builds are very very tight, and very focused. And that's not making the Slayer more awesome at something than a Scout, it just means that the Slayer's trick has one single application more than a Scout's, and that a Scout's fighting style is of a different nature than the Slayer's.

Look at the Scout's full suite of abilities. His Two-Weapon style gives you either a +1 attack roll (which is great in 4e) or +2 damage (also nice). Your Finesse means you can use your Dex Mod for EVERYTHING, Ranged AND Melee (a Slayer needs a Feat to do that, and only gets 1/2 damage off Dex). So a high Dex Ranger is still doing fantastic ranged damage. Just not the doubled up Dex damage a ranged Slayer can do.

Further, a Scout's dual weapon attack means you can attack a different target. The target is 'one creature' it is not 'the same creature'. A Slayer focuses on killing one person at a time. A Scout can be slashing at a soldier or brute or the elite/solo, and if he's positioned right, can also take his dual attack to kill a nearby minion, or slap around two people at once time. Scouts have a bit more of a tactical advantage in fighting multiple monsters.