The Secret Question About A Spell

[VorpalStare]

Unconscious people get Will and Fortitude saves. (Reflex saves depend on your interpretation of 'room to move'.) Dead people are unattended nonmagical objects, and get no save.

Unconscious people are always considered 'willing' for spells that require a willing target, but that doesn't mean they automatically submit to all spells.

-Hyp.

Thanks, Hypersmurf. Where is that covered, btw?

This spell appears to be an exception to this rule, since the target is "corpse".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Thanks, Hypersmurf. Where is that covered, btw?

Er. You pull bits of it from the Magic Overview in the PHB, the PHB Glossary, the Special Abilities section of the DMG... which bit in particular did you want a source for?

-Hyp.

 

[VorpalStare]

Er. You pull bits of it from the Magic Overview in the PHB, the PHB Glossary, the Special Abilities section of the DMG... which bit in particular did you want a source for?

-Hyp.

Been away from the computer for a little while.

This rule is counter-intuitive, since it's easier to resist a "willing only" spell than a spell that allows a saving throw. You automatically fail the easier-to-resist spell while you're unconscious, but still have a chance to save against a harder-to-resist spell in that situation. There are always ways to rationalize this, of course.

I've done a little poking around in the rules and couldn't find anything that cleary stated whether or not you got a save if you are unconscious or helpless. Is this a rule of omission -- i.e. if it doesn't say anywhere that you don't get a save, you still get it? If you could point me to the key rules that that establish this rule (or an old thread that discussed this), I'd very much appreciate it.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Then, yes, the gem would radiate magic. In fact, it radiate a Strong (spell level 7-9) aura of Conjuration magic.

Actually, no it would not. If I'm not mistaken, the spell's target is One Creature (which, in itself, is odd, because a dead creature is an object, not a creature). The sapphire is not the target of the spell, and thus isn't subject to the same detection that the target is.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, no it would not. If I'm not mistaken, the spell's target is One Creature (which, in itself, is odd, because a dead creature is an object, not a creature). The sapphire is not the target of the spell, and thus isn't subject to the same detection that the target is.

The spell is permanent. The creature, meaning its soul and material body, is pulled inside the sapphire.

It can be dispelled.

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform.

As to the oddness of "One dead creature," you're thinking of a different spell (Soul Bind, Sor / Wiz 9, Necromancy), not Trap the Soul - which has no such stipulation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I've done a little poking around in the rules and couldn't find anything that cleary stated whether or not you got a save if you are unconscious or helpless. Is this a rule of omission -- i.e. if it doesn't say anywhere that you don't get a save, you still get it? If you could point me to the key rules that that establish this rule (or an old thread that discussed this), I'd very much appreciate it.

Okay - regarding 'automatically willing':
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Regarding giving up a save:
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result.

Regarding 'harmless':
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.

So: unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing.

Giving up a save is something that must be done voluntarily; if you're unconscious, you have no volition, so you don't give up saves.

If a spell is (harmless), you can make a save if you desire, so again, it's a choice that you can't make while unconscious, therefore saves are not made against (harmless) spells while unconscious.

There's nothing in the rules to say that an unconscious character fails to receive a Will or Fortitude save.

As noted earlier, Reflex saves depend on your interpretation of 'room to move'.

-Hyp.

 

[VorpalStare]

Thanks Hypersmurf. This is what I expected and feared. Another rule that, if disputed at the table, requires reference to several different sections of the rules, and several minutes of game time to discuss. Bleh!

OK...end thread diversion.

 

[the Jester]

Thanks Hypersmurf. This is what I expected and feared. Another rule that, if disputed at the table, requires reference to several different sections of the rules, and several minutes of game time to discuss. Bleh!

Only if the dm so allows. I prefer to give a minute to discuss and then rule and move on; check the books later, and if need be announce we did it wrong and how it's going to work in the future.