The Shadowcaster -weak?

[Nifft]

Yey!

Nifft is fixing it... Right Nifft? I know you will

I will try my humble best.

-- N

 

[schatten-k.raehe]

I'm probably going to re-write the whole system. It's full of nice ideas, but the power level is off.

Actually I have come to the same conclusion. The basic ideas behind shadow magic / the shadowcasters are great, however the conversion into game terms seems somewhat unfinished... Besides some minor flaws in the backround / flavor text, one of the main problems is the rules being too different [from the standard rules] in the wrong areas and not different enough in others.

Currently I plan, as time permits, to create my own version of shadow magic and the shadowcaster, strongly inspired by Ari's work, however taking a (slightly?) different approach.

Thus far I've got some really neat ideas, however it will be quite some work to realize them and balancing things out... *sigh*

We'll see, if I actually manage to finish it in the first place...

Ari? Would it be of any help to you, if we'd sum up what bothers us about the shadowcaster / your approach to shadow magic as it is? Giving reasons why of course...
Thus far nearly all criticism is about the spellcasting mechanics, however I guess there are a bunch of other minor and major flaws, which would be worth a further look...

 

[airwalkrr]

Its appears to have less versatility than a sorcerer, with less spells. That speaks mountains. It doesnt need split ability scores... none of the classes in ToM did, since all are fairly weak. The class should have begun with the mysteries as supernatural abilities, not spells.

Didnt Ari design the marshall as well? If thats the case, then maybe he just favors weak classes.

I have seen marshalls in several campaigns, one that I ran, and two that I played it. The marshal class is extraordinarily powerful and I don't see how anyone would see it otherwise unless they had never actually seen the class in action. As a long character, a marshal is not very effective, but in a party of 3 or more, he gives them the ability to do things they could have only dreamed of. Imagine a party with a rogue, wizard, and marshal disarming giants. It's happened.

 

[Joël of the FoS]

Am planning to add a Villain NPC with this class in my RL game. With this discussion going on, I'll start designing the dude and let you know of any comments afterward

Joël

 

[Schmoe]

Heh. Sorry. Been out of town/busy for a few days. I'm also discussing the details of the shadowcaster with some other folk in the industry.

I'll post here in a few days with a few additional thoughts.

Cool! Can't wait to hear.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Ari? Would it be of any help to you, if we'd sum up what bothers us about the shadowcaster / your approach to shadow magic as it is? Giving reasons why of course...
Thus far nearly all criticism is about the spellcasting mechanics, however I guess there are a bunch of other minor and major flaws, which would be worth a further look...

I never turn down constructive criticism. (Emphasis on "constuctive." ) I can't promise to agree with everything you offer, but I'll certainly at least consider it.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I have seen marshalls in several campaigns, one that I ran, and two that I played it. The marshal class is extraordinarily powerful and I don't see how anyone would see it otherwise unless they had never actually seen the class in action. As a long character, a marshal is not very effective, but in a party of 3 or more, he gives them the ability to do things they could have only dreamed of.

I have seen 7 marshals in play in Living Greyhawk now. Every time I have judged the table or played at a table, the party with a marshal was among the most effective parties I have gamed with... and that would include over a hundred slots of LG gaming. Marshals also make great cohorts as well and I almost picked one for my main character... I was a sceptic at first, honestly, but I am a convert after seeing many in play.

I can't say much about the shadowcaster, if it ever gets approval for play in LG however, I'll know if it is underpowered or not based on whether it is played by players. The hexbalde, for instance... I've never seen a player play it, which is not to say there isn't one somewhere in LG. I've seen bunches of marshals but no hexblades. Odds are nothing in Tome of Magic will be approved for LG. I wonder if Tome of Magic will be approved for the RPGA Xendrik campaign? Anyone know? I hear nearly everything WotC has published will be approved for the RPGA Xendrik campaign, including evil PCs.

 

[Warbringer]

Lost all desire to actually play one. Damned shame. The flavor text is awesome.

Then play one for "role-playing" puroposes

 

[Wraith Form]

Thus far nearly all criticism is about the spellcasting mechanics.

Totally. Flavor text is awesome--very, uh, flavorful. Nice job, Ari! The pictures are very evocative, too.

 

[Cadfan]

Well, if you're looking for constructive criticism, i wrote a massive post above.

Short form:

When people say that he doesn't get enough spells per day, they mean the shadowcaster doesn't get enough attack spells per day, and he's a character who needs to cast spells for combat. Part of the reason they feel this way is because most of the attack spells will never be selected by an experienced player, so they feel like there aren't many available. Any spell with "save negates" that is of low level will be passed over because the experienced player. Mysteries can't be traded out, so a "save negates" mystery becomes dead weight at higher levels when enemies' saves have grown faster than the mystery's DC. So they won't be selected. This means that low level combat mysteries are very, very rare. Umbral Touch and Killing Shadows seem to be almost it for most players.

Mysteries, by their nature as abilities that can't be sacrificed later, need to be written to remain viable at high levels in order for players to select them for anything other than NPCs.

My vote is to make mystery DCs scale at 1/2 caster level + cha.

Then there's an honest amount of thought that goes into choosing mysteries like Mesmerizing Shade, or Shadow Vision, or even Shadow Hood.

This increases the number of choosable attack mysteries, lessening the feeling of low combat mysteries per day.

That's my only point.

Except please, if you do try to change the shadowcaster, don't listen to people who want to turn it into a clone of already existing classes. I LOVE the flavor of having mysteries that, the longer you know them, the better you get at using them. The mystery mechanic is very cool. Its just the reality of so many mysteries that I basically cannot use because 6 levels later they'll be obsolete dead weight, that drags the class down.