The Shadowcaster -weak?

[Falcon42]

Ari,

I LOVE the Shadowcaster class, both in conept and mechanics! Is there any chance we'll see additional material for them in future publications, perhaps such as the Complete Mage?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Ari,

I LOVE the Shadowcaster class, both in conept and mechanics! Is there any chance we'll see additional material for them in future publications, perhaps such as the Complete Mage?

Not in Complete Mage, but I certainly do hope to have the opportunity to do more with the shadowcaster in the future. Maybe a web enhancement or Dragon article, if nothing else.

 

[Cadfan]

If you do, perhaps a touch based mystery path for initiate and master levels?

It would be fun to make a character devoted to touch spells, and the shadowcaster, with Flicker and Umbral Hand, is the best start we've got.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

If you do, perhaps a touch based mystery path for initiate and master levels?

It would be fun to make a character devoted to touch spells, and the shadowcaster, with Flicker and Umbral Hand, is the best start we've got.

That would be cool.

 

[nightjackal1977]

Okay, I've been giving this a lot of thought, taking into account what people here have been saying, as well as comments from other folks, and a few other RPG writers. The following alterations are what I'm currently considering. This is not official errata. This is not even unofficial errata. I may well change my mind on one or all of these, before I give my "final" stamp of approval on any tweaks to the class. (And of course, even once I do, it'll have no official weight.)

Now, this doesn't go as far as some of you have requested, but it's where I'd like to start. If some of you would like to volunteer to run a few playtest adventures with these changes in place, I'd very much love to know how it goes.

1) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Int. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Int is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

2) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can. You must still have at least one mystery of any given level equivalent (1st, 2nd, etc.) before you can get a mystery of the next higher level within a type (Apprentice, Initiate, Master), but they need not come from the same Path.

3) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

4) Allow the shadowcaster to swap out mysteries, like a sorcerer does spells, with the caveat that if you suddenly "un-complete" a Path, you lose a feat as well.

5) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

(And BTW, the warp spell mystery shouldn't say that it allows a Will save. The caster level check determines success or failure.)

Now, be aware that I have not playtested the changes myself. I'm not running a game at present--my last campaign wrapped up a few weeks ago--nor am I currently playing a shadowcaster. I also haven't been able to devote too much time to considering them, as I've just wrapped up a huge gig for WotC, and am about to dive into a short one for Vampire, before (tentatively) starting another for WotC. So I'll be the first to admit, there might be repurcussions to these ideas that I haven't yet seen. I'm quite eager to hear any thoughts you folks have, and any results that might come up in play. As I've said before, the shadowcaster was my first attempt to design anything so fundamentally different from the standard classes, and I won't pretend it's perfect.

So let's make it perfect.

Well I am play a Shadowcaster in game atm. He is 8th level and I asked the DM if I can use these rule changes for him, which he agreed.

So far I like to report that the changes made a difference in the power level of the class but did not make him over-powering...so far I say it help level the playing field a bit better. I ended up being a very supportive role and seems to fit the character very well.

Rule #1 as it is, does make it a little easier to be liberal with the spells and not hold back to much in combat. Guess the 1 more casting of a mystery is noticable.

Rule #2 and #3 it work better this way since jumping around paths allows you pick up the ones you want makes dealing with the limited number you can get of mysterys a little easier (1/level). I still ended up finishing 2 paths just to get the bonus feats. Only addition reccommendation for Shadowcaster is to add a feat called "Extra Mystery" and allow them to take that to get an addition mystery. Keep the same rule of it can only be of the one less then the highest "level" you can cast. That feat would add a bit more flavor.

Since he is only 8th level have not used the rule change #4 and #5 though, I know that rule #5 will be a big help and would give the low level spells a new lease on life.

Well I know this not a big report for you Ari but hope it gives more credence to your changes.

 

[Moorcrys]

The only problem with an 'extra mystery' feat is that you could potentially use it to close out a path, thereby gaining an extra feat. It would have to not count for that purpose which could be a headache.

 

[nightjackal1977]

Well then it would just need a cluase with "Does not count for closing a path, you would have to select the Mystery agian as part of your normal selection."

 

[wykthor]

Mouseferatu, I tend to lurk only at this board, but I couldn´t resist this topic. I loved the concept of the shadowcaster but was disappointed with the mechanics. I applaud the initiative to debate your material and I hope my comments below provide a positive feedback

Now, this doesn't go as far as some of you have requested, but it's where I'd like to start. If some of you would like to volunteer to run a few playtest adventures with these changes in place, I'd very much love to know how it goes.

It’s possible that in January I’ll play an one-shot of a 20th lvl adventure. Originally, I intended to use a warlock/evoker/eldritch theurge, but I talked with the DM and he agreed to a modified shadowcaster. If this session happens, I’ll post the results.

Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Int. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Int is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

I really like the idea of bonus mysteries per se and tried to put some thoughts on it. If the calculations below are wrong, please correct me .

Ex: A 20th lvl shadow caster has elite array (15 Int, 14 Cha), proper equipment (tome of clear thought +5, headband of intellect +6) but didn’t invest any of the ability points granted at 4/8/12/16/20, so the M.A.D. will have it’s full effect on INT, which will have a total score of 26 (+ 2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/0 mysteries/day). I confess I didn’t understand the concept of a “floating” bonus, so I’ll stick with the extra mysteries applied to each level normally. So, assuming this shadowcaster learned two mysteries per mystery level, at 20th he has the following number of uses:

1 (Su): 3 x mystery, 3 x mystery,+2 bonus

2 (Su): 3 x mystery, 3 x mystery, +2 bonus

3 (Su): 3 x mystery, 3 x mystery, +2 bonus,

4 (Sp): 2 x mystery, 2 x mystery,+2 bonus

5 (Sp): 2 x mystery, 2 x mystery, +1 bonus

6 (Sp): 2 x mystery, 2 x mystery, +1 bonus

7 (Spell): 1 x mystery, 1 x mystery, +1 bonus

8 (Spell): 1 x mystery, 1 x mystery, +1 bonus

9 (Spell): 1 x mystery, 1 x mystery

For a quantitative analysis only, this shadowcaster will be able to cast, daily:

8/8/8/6/5/5/3/3/2

IF the same shadowcaster wholly privileged INT for the bonus ability points, his final INT score would be 31 (+ 3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1 mysteries). The total uses of mysteries per day would be:

9/9/8/6/6/6/3/3/3

Comparing with a wizard with 15 (initial) + 5 (ability points) +5 (Tome) +6 (headband) may cast:

7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5

I know this is hardly a reliable comparison and I don’t want to equalize the shadowcaster with the wizard (a class that IS powerful, to say the least). But I think there is a valid point, considering the shadowcaster has a smaller repertoire than the sorcerer, which has more spell slots than a wizard. HOWEVER, I think the “high INT” shadowcaster has a pretty decent number of uses/day which can make some compensation even though the wizard has the advantage on the three highest spell levels.

Conclusion: The bonus mysteries are a necessity, but IMHO will only compensate if the multiple attribute dependence is somehow alleviated.

Suggestion: Conceptually, I like the need of INT + CHA to employ the art of shadow: one to learn the subtleties of shadowcraft and the other to force the shadow to coalesce to your whim. However, instead of dividing the Save DC and the Extra Mysteries between two ability scores, apply both to ONE of these abilities, while the other remains responsible for the maximum mystery level possible to cast (i.e. needs 10+ Mystery level). This also solves the low save DC problem without reducing the shadowcaster to a single-attribute spellslinger. The ability not responsible for the DC and extra mysteries would still be important enough to guarantee the 2nd or 3rd highest attribute number (so a 13/14 with a +6 wondrous item grants access to the highest mysteries). I’d lower the final base Fort bonus to +6, though.

Regarding WHICH ability would be responsible for bonus mysteries and Save DC, I recommend CHA for two reasons. First, I think INT has enough mechanical attractiveness on its own (skill points), so a player wouldn’t complain to much for not upping CON, while the expense of Cha just to fulfill high mystery requirements might cause grumbling ;-). Second, for fluffiness, I believe CHA becomes a more interesting choice for shadow channeling and empowerment than INT

In sum: I agree with the bonus mysteries’ idea, except I’d prefer Charisma and but maintain it in charge of the Save DCs.

Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can. You must still have at least one mystery of any given level equivalent (1st, 2nd, etc.) before you can get a mystery of the next higher level within a type (Apprentice, Initiate, Master), but they need not come from the same Path =)

I agree 100% on that. Respectfully, the worst trait I saw on the shadowcaster was the strictness of the paths. Eliminating this handicap goes a long way!

Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

Agreed. It also gives meaning to the paths beside their natural coolness

Allow the shadowcaster to swap out mysteries, like a sorcerer does spells, with the caveat that if you suddenly "un-complete" a Path, you lose a feat as well.

Well, I’d support this idea, but not with the possibility of “losing” feats. I really don’t like that, sorry. Personally, I’d stick with the absence of “mystery-swapping” as, IMHO, it’s possible to plan ahead the mystery progression without much suffering.

Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

Personally, I’m not too fond of changing the mechanics of DCs in a class. Perhaps the suggestion above regarding a M.A.D less severe could solve the problem?

And BTW, the warp spell mystery shouldn't say that it allows a Will save. The caster level check determines success or failure.)

I agree 100%

Final Considerations:

1) Regarding shadowcaster feats, I have a question: Do Ability Focus/Empower Spell-like Ability/Quicken Spell-like Ability feats affect Initiate Mysteries or one Master Mystery which has been chosen by the Favored Mystery Feat?

2) Besides the problems discussed above, I believe there’s a last “underpower issue”: the class lacks real offensive options from character levels 2-4. While at 1st level the shadowcaster can count on Arrow of Dusk and Mesmerizing Shades, from then on until level 5 (i.e. killing shadows becomes available), the character suffers from lack of good mysteries, especially from 2nd level.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Mouseferatu, I tend to lurk only at this board, but I couldn´t resist this topic. I loved the concept of the shadowcaster but was disappointed with the mechanics. I applaud the initiative to debate your material and I hope my comments below provide a positive feedback

Any comments provided thoughtfully and politely constitute positive feedback. Thank you.

It’s possible that in January I’ll play an one-shot of a 20th lvl adventure. Originally, I intended to use a warlock/evoker/eldritch theurge, but I talked with the DM and he agreed to a modified shadowcaster. If this session happens, I’ll post the results.

I'd love to hear them. Due to the nature of the campaigns I've been in, I still haven't had the chance to play one myself, or to see one played.

Conclusion: The bonus mysteries are a necessity, but IMHO will only compensate if the multiple attribute dependence is somehow alleviated.

Suggestion: Conceptually, I like the need of INT + CHA to employ the art of shadow: one to learn the subtleties of shadowcraft and the other to force the shadow to coalesce to your whim. However, instead of dividing the Save DC and the Extra Mysteries between two ability scores, apply both to ONE of these abilities, while the other remains responsible for the maximum mystery level possible to cast (i.e. needs 10+ Mystery level). This also solves the low save DC problem without reducing the shadowcaster to a single-attribute spellslinger. The ability not responsible for the DC and extra mysteries would still be important enough to guarantee the 2nd or 3rd highest attribute number (so a 13/14 with a +6 wondrous item grants access to the highest mysteries). I’d lower the final base Fort bonus to +6, though.

Interesting thought. I don't believe I've ever seen a class where one stat was responsible for bonus abilities and DCs, while another was responsible for maximum level of abilities. Of course, the fact that I haven't seen it doesn't mean it's a bad idea; the whole point of Tome of Magic was to do new stuff.

I say go for it in your playtest. If it works out, I'll be happy to add it to my "official unofficial fixes."

Regarding WHICH ability would be responsible for bonus mysteries and Save DC, I recommend CHA for two reasons. First, I think INT has enough mechanical attractiveness on its own (skill points), so a player wouldn’t complain to much for not upping CON, while the expense of Cha just to fulfill high mystery requirements might cause grumbling ;-). Second, for fluffiness, I believe CHA becomes a more interesting choice for shadow channeling and empowerment than INT

Hmm... I'm torn. On the one hand, because shadowcasters have to learn and study so much, I'm inclined to say Int should be more important. On a mechanical level, however, I agree with you about emphasizing Charisma.

What the heck. Max power level is enough of an incentive for high Int. I'll side with you on this one, too.

Well, I’d support this idea, but not with the possibility of “losing” feats. I really don’t like that, sorry. Personally, I’d stick with the absence of “mystery-swapping” as, IMHO, it’s possible to plan ahead the mystery progression without much suffering.

Hmm... I think this is one place I'm going to disagree. No matter how carefully someone plans, it's always possible that, as a player learns the ins and outs of the class, he'll realize that what he thought was a good choice is in fact a poor one. I figure if someone wants to trade out a mystery so badly that he's willing to lose a feat, he should have that option.

Personally, I’m not too fond of changing the mechanics of DCs in a class. Perhaps the suggestion above regarding a M.A.D less severe could solve the problem?

I could go either way on this one. I have no problem with the notion of changing the DCs, but I'm not married to the notion either.

Perhaps your discoveries while playing it will convince me.

1) Regarding shadowcaster feats, I have a question: Do Ability Focus/Empower Spell-like Ability/Quicken Spell-like Ability feats affect Initiate Mysteries or one Master Mystery which has been chosen by the Favored Mystery Feat?

Not by my intent. My intention was that, if the shadowcaster wants to apply "Meta" feats to his mysteries, the meta-shadow feats are the only way to go.

That said, it probably wouldn't be broken if the DM allowed the ones you list. I just think it futzes with the flavor.

2) Besides the problems discussed above, I believe there’s a last “underpower issue”: the class lacks real offensive options from character levels 2-4. While at 1st level the shadowcaster can count on Arrow of Dusk and Mesmerizing Shades, from then on until level 5 (i.e. killing shadows becomes available), the character suffers from lack of good mysteries, especially from 2nd level.

Oh, I dunno. I think black fire has some viable uses.

But you're partly right; the shadowcaster doesn't have a lot of offense at those levels. Then again, I'm not sure they're necessary. He has plenty of mysteries that serve other purposes--stealth, protection, etc.--to make himself useful.

I very much appreciate your thoughts, incidentally, and I'm happy to discuss any of my thoughts and decisions further.

 

[Thomas Percy]

Wykthor - I consider the problem with Cha+Int dependence too, and I think this kind of design makes this class more interested and less powerful simultaneously.

I'm playing a shadowcaster / noctumancer 12 upgraded by Mousferatu EnWorld "eratta",and I can say the class is more powerful, and more simple to build (you don't need to bother with all theses paths) then the original, but it's still less powerful than our party's incantatrix. But it's OK for me.

The point is that 95% of my PC's felxibility and smart game solutions come from wizard's spell list, not from mysteries list. I cast bolster, bolster, bolster, bend perspective and killing shadows, killing shadows, killing shadows everytime. I think there are two reasons (besides my selection of mysteries):
1. All material is new, and not so 20-years-playtested as PHB spells, so mysteries are not so "smart" as eg. telekinesis spell.
2. Shadowcaster is similiar to sorcerer, he's not flexible.

Anyway, I like all these immediate mysteries and these like: bolster or thoughts of shadow - because they are simple and powerful - I hope 4e will be designed like that (not like complicated maths riddle eg. Divine Favor spell).

Few words about combo - I think Favored Mystery feat is one of most powerful for players feats of 3,5e, because it makes my ultimate (empowered maximized imposible to resist) weapon (killing shadow) supernatural ability, and I don't need to bother with SR.



My mysteries:
Mysteries Known (CL12th, Greater Spell Penetration):
5th—echo spell (spell, ○○/day, mogę powtórzyć rzucony przez innego w poprzedniej rundzie czar z kręgów 1–4)
4th—bolster (spell, ●○○/day, dodaje dotkniętemu 5hp/lev), warp spell (spell, ○○○/day, ►immediate, sporny test 1d20+CL, udany = countered i dostaję dodatkową apperentice mystery)
3rd—flicker (Sp, ○○○○/day, ►immediate, displacement do końca rd i dimension door), killing shadows (Su, ○○○○/day, SR no, cone 30 ft., d8/CL [144], Will DC19 halves)
2nd—shadow skin (Sp, ○○○○/day, ►immediate, 10/silver)
1st—bend perspective (Sp, z wand, ○○○○/day sensor, 100ft.)
0—arrow of dusk (Su, ○○○○/day, +9 ranged touch, SR no, 2d4/x3)