D&D 5E The skill system is one dimensional.

DEFCON 1 said:
I'm of the opinion that pretty much most of these questions/concerns/wants/needs come down to players and DMs both wanting to play the game in a certain way... and just not trusting the other side to follow them or play that way too.

Why do so many DMs get angry about so many species with Darkvision? Because they want to run their games in such a way that having monsters hiding out in the darkness and then being able to surprise and attack the players from the darkness without the players noticing them is a story they want to tell. But if all the players play species with Darkvision... that's them telling the DM "We don't like that story, so we are deliberately choosing options that stop us from having to be handed that story."



some truth to that, but a lot of that is because they don't take the time to understand the rules. Darkvision is a very very limited type of vision. In almost every game I've ever played in it was treated like the movie Riddick. You can just see in the dark. map out 30ft and then 60ft and imagine all the things you can't see around you. Dark vision is the most abused ability in all of DND and Pathfinder because it's a pain to keep track of who can see what and everyone just defaults to easy mode you can see in the dark. Just following the rules of darkvision as written in the book, I find makes most parties default to torches and light spells. Even descriptions of Drow Cities usually start with glowing fungus and light sources as you get into civilized areas. Because you can't see far enough to avoid the monsters.

Now
 

log in or register to remove this ad

No offense but this comes from three things:
  • The DM not knowing the powers of their players because they haven't been a player or failed to read what their players could do.
  • The DM does not completely understand the creatures and/or scenario; therefore, they start making crap up which results in things like fudging die rolls, ballooning hit points mid fight, making damage greater than what it actually is, and/or increasing the number of baddies on a whim. All because they failed to actually understand or thoroughly think about how the encounter would play out.
  • The DM fails to look for advice elsewhere. Buy an adventure path for Christ's sake and read it. It has all types of encounters in there that are appropriate.

And I get inexperienced DMs making this mistake. But if they have read and done their homework, those mistakes will much less than their successes. And, at times, even experienced DMs flub it. That's fine too. We've probably all had some great big baddie we spent hours creating or crafting a story around die in one round. That's ok. It happens. But consistent error does not happen if the DM is willing to learn.
Not really.
It more comes down to D&D transitioning to a different type of game at high levels once low level spell slots stop being critical to combat.

When you have 1st and 2nd level spell slots that don't have much damage or range over cantrips, spellcasters transition them to buffs, movement, and utility. And the game changes. Was the same in older editions with auto-scaling spells.

You have to recognize that. This isn't told to inexperienced DMs. It's more more less a "trial by fire" almost every DMs goes though if they play high level play. And few designers and adventure writers write for the change of play. "You learn when a player busts your campaign" is the normal way to learn this stuff in the community.
 

I am critiquing it not because of the HP or combat ability or whatever. I'm critiquing it because the whole skill system is orthogonal to the spell system. At high levels you end up with skill classes being entirely reliant on GM fiat (because the skill system is trash) and and spell classes being godlike (because spells are clearly defined in the rules).
My issue is the contrast between skills and spells. As spells advance they become clearly superior,

That is because "Magic Spells" in D&D are essentially a form of reliable technology.

Because this:
The issue you seem to have is that magic just always works if you have spells slots.

The only way to reconcile the two disparate systems it to change one to work like the other.

You either give spells a casting roll vs AC or a DC, making them more unreliable. (Good luck selling that to the D&D player base...)

Or you have skills function like spells, with "Skill Slots". The higher the DC the more 'skill slots' must be expended.

With spammable "Skill Cantrips" for certain low-level effects...

This would move skills into the same resource management mechanic category as spells.

The in-between solution would be to take the PF2 route of Skill Feats.
 

Unfortunately, explicated skill systems have gone quite thoroughly out of fashion, and I have all but given up hope of seeing a new design take on the task of listing out everything one can actually do with skills
I really would not like that. Skills represent a group of related activities you are good at. I do not want a list, which will invariably be incomplete.

If you want to do something more complex that utilizes the skill, you get a higher DC. Works as intended
 

See below for explication, but I think the primary concern is scaling with some affordance made for consistency with worldbuilding. Given that, scaling DCs make some sense. If you want a number that fits the current context, it’s a lot easier to provide a scale and let the DM make up something appropriate than it is to provide a menu of options wirth the required numbers. (I do think numbers should be knowable by the PCs even in a scaled DC systems. Otherwise, you can’t reason about the approaches available to you, and it makes resolution less immediate, and that contribute to the fun.)
I take a fairly hardline stance personally that scaling is a design side tool that should be used to set the tone/structure of the world and system, but should not be an encounter design facing tool. Page 42 should have been buried in the DMG2, as a "if you want to change the underlying nature of reality, observe how this matches up to different skill DC" section, not referenced by standard DM or worse, player side mechanics.
My assumption is the DM will be picking obstacles the same way they do monsters, which is by evaluating what’s available at the intended level of difficulty. The party is Xth level, which requires a set of CR Yth level monsters for some particular amount of challenge, and I want those to be undead, so I can pick from Z options. For that same Xth level party, if the DM wanted to include a trap or barrier, then the DM is going to look at things of the intended difficulty and pick from that list. In a sense, these things are helping to reinforce the game’s intended milieu by ensuring the challenges match what the characters are capable of doing.

As you intuit, I’m not a fan of the progression treadmill. I prefer the approaches used in old-school games and static DCs like PbtA games. As you get better, you get better. If done well, your journey in competence goes from requiring a lot of help (and risk of consequences) to being self-sufficient (or nearly close to it). That’s how it worked in our Blades in the Dark game. In the beginning, we had to work together, push ourselves, and take devils’ bargains. By the end, we were doing solo scores and taking on big things by ourselves. I like that much better as a form of progression than what amounts to doing the same thing at higher levels but described more fantastically.
Yes, this is precisely what I mean by scaling in kind instead of magnitude. Players should be able to do more and more different things as they increase in capability. If you start with scaling or generic difficulty, you end up mapping a DC 5 Jumping challenge is a narrow pit to a DC 15 challenge is a broad pit to a DC 25 challenge is a chasm, but the play procedure hasn't changed and the player's decision making is completely unimpacted by the game. It's just the adjectives used to describe the problem that are different. If skills map not to "scale of problem" but instead to "specific player abilities" then the whole decision space is changed as they level up.

I think part of this requires a deeper and more nuanced understanding of challenge/obstacle design in general though. Even something like a skill challenge (my least favorite innovation in game design) is really starting numbers first. I'm not actually interested in, as @DEFCON 1 put it earlier, creating an "Ability check minigame." Instead, I want players to solve puzzles and problems and express themselves through gameplay choices against puzzles and situations. It's fine and good if a player finds a way to fix an issue in 3 die rolls, but it's horrible to design an issue that's solved (or is meant to be solved) by 3 die rolls.
Non-combat specialities are a WIP in my homebrew system, but that’s how things work thanks to static DCs. If you want to make a map of an area you explored (thus allowing you to find it again without having to navigate back), you make a Skill Check using Cartography + Wisdom. If you want to cast from a scroll, that’s Scroll Use + Intellect. Spells work the same way as skills, but they use your Mage rank the method instead of a skill. That avoids the problem of spells being categorically better than skills. You’ll still want to invest in skills because there are trade-offs to using spells. They cost MP, which you can only recover normally with MP potions (that cost stress to consume) or by using a weekly downtime activity; and your Mage rank is derived from your level, but skills are bought with EXP and have a maximum rank of +5 that’s independent of level.
I don't actually think "roll to cast" is that fundamentally important in the skill vs. spell capacity question. They have different resource expenditures, generally time vs. limited charges, and it's pretty easy to modulate access to them, thus that having a lot of spell ability limits broad skills. If anything, I think low level utility spells often represent a better core gameplay loop than skill checks do. Skills are nearly always rolled reactively; a problem or obstacle happens, you roll a skill check to see if it affects you. Spells are proactive; the problem happens, you decide if you want to spend a resource to overcome it. That same thing expands to agency in general, skills rarely provide any ability to frame or alter a situation while spells have lots of declarative text that lets you do that.

There's a lot of hacks that would make sense to put more abilities in the skill system that steal some of that gameplay from spells. Imagine say, a rogue with a pool of "thievery points" they can allot to increase skills checks so they can hit specific DCs, or a specialist character that can assign a floating skill bonus each rest to change their capabilities, or a berserker that can overdrive some skills for X period of time and risk fatigue...there's a lot of different resource models you could layer on top of a skill system.
I like this approach. It’s similar to the argument that old-school skills were actually providing you with something more than the baseline. A thief who uses Move Silently is not just sneaking about but is in actuality completely silent upon success. I don’t now how common that view was though at the time, and I think the idea of using that approach in a modern D&D-like might be a tough sell for some. (See also: the complaints people have about skill feats in PF2.)
I blame a lot of my idiosyncrasies on a 3e entry into the hobby. It feels entirely normal and natural to me that skills should largely define their effects in player facing material, and the real design question was what those abilities should be and at what rate they should be delivered to characters. I'm still baffled by how comfortable everyone is with just making up a DC. I would have once upon a time called an RPG without an attempt to spell out the applications of skills as an incomplete product.
 

The only way to reconcile the two disparate systems it to change one to work like the other.

You either give spells a casting roll vs AC or a DC, making them more unreliable. (Good luck selling that to the D&D player base...)

Or you have skills function like spells, with "Skill Slots". The higher the DC the more 'skill slots' must be expended.

With spammable "Skill Cantrips" for certain low-level effects...

This would move skills into the same resource management mechanic category as spells.

The in-between solution would be to take the PF2 route of Skill Feats.
I went into more detail in my last post, but I hardly think those are the only options, there's lots of possible resource expenditure structures, and it's certainly possible to play the game with consistently repeatable techniques. It's not like anyone seriously expects to drain all of a caster's slots on Spider Climb. The difference between being able to do it once when it's relevant and all the time is quite slim.
 
Last edited:

Now what does the spell do? It answers that exact yes or no question. It just says yes. No question about it.
I would much prefer to go in the opposite direction however and require a roll for both, with varying effects for failure or ‘overachieving’.

Not quite DCC style, but a lot closer to that than we have today
 


thats a really unfun way of looking at things, and not only makes the role of DM pointless But also entirely overrides player agency.

If I’m a wizard taking Misty step its because its a cool power that lets me overcome an obstacle, not because I dont want to face obstacles but because I want to feel awesome when I overcome the challenge - be creative in giving me more of those challenges so I can creatively overcome them.
Same if I’m taking expertise in perception - its because I want to be a hawkeye who spots details others miss. A DM who determines my Perception ability means “this guy has really good perception so doesnt want me to add anything to the game for him to find’ has entirely over ridden player agency and made the game worse.
I think it depends on how one is coming at the challenges.

If you want to be a Hawkeye and spot details other miss so you go all-in on Perception... getting yourself like a +12 with always-on Advantage... that's fine in of itself. But what about now all of these checks the DM would have ordinarily been putting in front of you and the party that would have been DC 10? You are making this checks all the time. Every time. Is THAT supposed to be "fun"? Because at that point having a high Perception is essentially unnecessary because there's never a check that is in question. We have effectively removed all things that could be perceived under a certain level-- remove all manner of challenges under a certain level.

If you do that... if you are stripping the game of all manner of challenges under a certain level... why else would one think you would do that other than you just don't want to be challenged by those anymore? You don't want to have "easy things" put in front of you, because you always will succeed. So why would the DM even mention these things if there was no chance of failure? Do DMs ever let the players know "You were successful in putting on your armor this morning." No. Of course not. Because there was never any chance of NOT doing that, so there's no point in talking about it. If you always succeed on standard Perception stuff, then the DM will past that onto you through normal party information distribution and most likely never even bother telling you that it was because you had "high Perception". "High Perception" becomes so rote that it ceases to be much of anything.

The only time the DM will question you as the high-Perception PC about Perception things is when you still have a chance of failure even with the high-Perception stuff. Because that's the only time when something is in question. If nothing is in question, then it's not going to be talked about as a challenge. And if it's not a challenge, then it'll just be casual conversation information the DM will pass on to you. And speaking personally... non-challenges to me are not as much fun as challenges to play. And that's why having extremely high skill modifiers or "always succeed" levels is the removal of fun, rather than the gain of it. But you might feel differently, and that's cool.
 

I think it depends on how one is coming at the challenges.

If you want to be a Hawkeye and spot details other miss so you go all-in on Perception... getting yourself like a +12 with always-on Advantage... that's fine in of itself. But what about now all of these checks the DM would have ordinarily been putting in front of you and the party that would have been DC 10? You are making this checks all the time. Every time. Is THAT supposed to be "fun"? Because at that point having a high Perception is essentially unnecessary because there's never a check that is in question. We have effectively removed all things that could be perceived under a certain level-- remove all manner of challenges under a certain level.

If you do that... if you are stripping the game of all manner of challenges under a certain level... why else would one think you would do that other than you just don't want to be challenged by those anymore? You don't want to have "easy things" put in front of you, because you always will succeed. So why would the DM even mention these things if there was no chance of failure? Do DMs ever let the players know "You were successful in putting on your armor this morning." No. Of course not. Because there was never any chance of NOT doing that, so there's no point in talking about it. If you always succeed on standard Perception stuff, then the DM will past that onto you through normal party information distribution and most likely never even bother telling you that it was because you had "high Perception". "High Perception" becomes so rote that it ceases to be much of anything.
See, this is the bit that I think is the mistake. A "challenge" should never be a thing that hinges on a single die roll. The reward for that character building choice should be precisely what you're saying here, a world stripped of ambushes and stealth. Ideally the game system should require a certain trade-off for this, presumably that player will not have spent resources elsewhere. I realize there's all kinds of specific case issues (Perception generally allows one individual to succeed for the whole group, Stealth generally allows one individual to fail for the whole group, etc.), but putting those into the general bucket of design problems to be solved, I don't see a problem here.
The only time the DM will question you as the high-Perception PC about Perception things is when you still have a chance of failure even with the high-Perception stuff. Because that's the only time when something is in question. If nothing is in question, then it's not going to be talked about as a challenge. And if it's not a challenge, then it'll just be casual conversation information the DM will pass on to you. And speaking personally... non-challenges to me are not as much fun as challenges to play. And that's why having extremely high skill modifiers or "always succeed" levels is the removal of fun, rather than the gain of it. But you might feel differently, and that's cool.
I don't know that this follows. I mean, I had a PC in an A5E game who had a passive perception of 25 and a similarly high investigation score through assorted character building choices. The PCs were criminal investigators, so I would often describe a scene, describe some details to the other players, and then tell this PC everything that could be found at the site. He then got to play up a deeply perceptive Sherlock Holmes type, pointing out details and working with the party to turn all those pieces into a narrative of what happened.

I don't think not rolling a check to check each body in detail was a huge loss for him.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top