The Slow Death of Epic Tier

I would disagree that the gods have gotten around this. Where adenturers are the "wild west", gods are pre-WWI europe. They have their Balkans, always tettering on the brink, threatening to bring down the whole. They have their "entangling alliances" that would cause the whole to come to war over the few.

They haven't really gotten over it, they've just gotten into a rut.

In fact, the very reasoning behind the limited number of Gods in early 4E, is as I recall, that they had a "World War of the Gods".

Yes. I should have said that they have found, "effective but imperfect ways" to get around the problem. This is to distinguish them from, say, some realtively stupid primordial who wears his feelings on his face all the time, and never fools anyone. It may be the tottering end of Metternich's treaties, but some beings are more like England, France, or Germany, and others are more like Albania.

Also, I would think that they would know each other very well. Nevermind using magic to read minds. They already know what the rest are thinking. I've just passed my 20th wedding anniversary, mere mortal with no D&D levels whatsoever. My wife can say, "You know that guy in the movie ..." and I know who she means from some subtle clue in the previous conversation. I would think after the first 1000 years or so of putting up with Bane, that Moradin knows what he thinks about pretty much everything. :)

This is another way in which epic level PCs can be interesting. They are just getting the power, but no one really knows them yet. That's both a potential advantage and a potential threat.
 

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Howdy Ryujin! :)

...if only I'd thought of that...

:cool:

You know what they say; "Great minds........ steal ideas from others and don't bother wasting the time to think them up" :p

I always wanted to play in an adventure where a door on the other side of a room opened up to the door that I just entered through.
 

I always wanted to play in an adventure where a door on the other side of a room opened up to the door that I just entered through.

I had one of those....it's less fun that it looks when your group can't figure out how to get out.
 

I had one of those....it's less fun that it looks when your group can't figure out how to get out.

It simply requires a different kind of mapping. Worst case; a skill challenge once they've completed their 'mission', in order to find the way out. Successes reduce the time that it takes them to get out, on a time sensitive quest.
 

It simply requires a different kind of mapping. Worst case; a skill challenge once they've completed their 'mission', in order to find the way out. Successes reduce the time that it takes them to get out, on a time sensitive quest.

It was basically a classic puzzle challenge. But it was still annoying as heck.
 


This is actually one of the other problems with epic-level play. The vast majority of epic foes are extra-planar is nature. Although the outer planes can always be a threat to the PCs' homeland, epic-level play tends to involve the PCs leaving the locations and NPCs to which they have developed attachments. That's a major barrier for the games I tend to play/run.
I also see the ghettoization of epic content as kind of a problem. KidSnide, your observation's spot on. I run a pretty social game, so many of my players are interested in relationships with NPCs they've been hanging around since the early levels. Not just romantic relationships, mind: mentorships, rivalries, friendships, even things like playing matchmaker between NPCs. Stuff that goes on in between adventures. As designed, epic tier is meant either to take place somewhere outside that world or to draw the players' attention to the world-shaking threats it represents, discouraging them from spending casual time in a peaceful setting.
I can see where these comments are coming from, but I don't entirely agree. I fully agree that a game which simply switches location, from the world where play has taken place up until now, to the outer planes, won't work for engaging the players. (In my view, the city of Union in the 3E Epic handbook is a classic example of this sort of failure.) But Epic needn't be like that.

I know from my own experience running high-level Rolemaster that it is possible to run an epic-style game - with wahoo magic, with ancient dragons, angels, gods and demons as the principal adversaries, with other planes as the site of many of these encounters, etc - in a way that is tightly integrated with a mundane homeland that the players (and therefore their PCs) care about. But what this requires is seeding that homeland with these connections to deeper mythical forces, and the other planes where they live and play out, from early in the game.

I think there are a lot of permutations of theme, tone, and relationship of epic play to the rest of the game and setting. Some combinations are likely to work better than others of course.

All of them IMHO generally involve epic play being tied to a fairly deep story is what I'm getting out of the whole discussion.
Not only a deep story, but one which is linked to the mythic/other-planar features that (given what WotC is actually publishing) are going to be the core game elements of epic tier play.

This means that you are right when you say that some lower-level adventures will work better than others for seeding Epic play. Not every god, every artefact and every campaign backstory is equally well-suited to the task. I think the lack of a discussion of these matters is one of the weaknesses of the existing GM advice for epic play.

It's also interesting that (as I read it) the Plane Above appears to cater to multiple approaches to Epic tier - the discussion of the gods, the compact of heaven, venturing into deep myth and so on all seems aimed at the sort of epic play we're discussing in this thread, whereas the Outer Isles and the Githyanki pirates seem to me to be more relevant for an Epic tier which is just more dungeon crawling or adventure without a strong story integration into what has gone on at lower levels. Again, that book could probably be improved by talking a bit more frankly about the different sorts of play its contents are suited to supporting.
 

I think there are three choices:

1) You can run a game in an epic world, not unlike the Illiad (at least under certain interpretations), where gods and demi-gods are sometimes physically presents and impossible epic tasks are expected.

<snip>

2) You can run a game in which epic threats are the rare exception.

<snip>

3) You can run a game in which there are many epic threats, but they are ghettoized to the outer planes (or some other arena). This is the D&D default
I think there are actually two D&D defaults. One is the one which you describe, and it's supported by elements of 4e, like the Outer Isles described in the Plane Above.

The other is one which combines your 3 options, by locating epic threats primarily on the outer planes (as per 3) but some climacitc historical/metaphysical event (as per 2, or as per chaochou's example upthread of Orcus stopping a loved one coming back to life) brings those threats into some sort of connection with the most powerful heroes of the world (as per 1). A lot of features of 4e support this alternative default, like the idea that the Abyss is sucking in all of creation, or that civilisation could be remade by reparing the Lattice of Heaven, or that the PCs could travel back into deep myth to undo the sundering of the elves.

But this sort of thing obviously won't suit all games. In particular, because of 1 and 2, it is not well-suited to the idea of a campaign world that can be ported from game to game - or, at least, once a campaign world has seen this sort of epic play, it's unlikely to be well-suited for further epic play.
 

If I have to name my greatest challenge with my game Dark Prophecy (Eberron) it was making a 20-30 plot that didn't go galavanting around the planes logically. I really like epic play - anyone can tell by how much I bring it up on these forums in any thread - but I found it quite hard conceptually how to get around that. I eventually went with a plot that exploited some of the old aberrant mark lore and such - who were certainly powerful (EG: Epic) enough to challenge level 20+ heroes. So that made a really good plot and I think it will turn out to be well justified (but we'll see over time, I have a year or more before I need to worry!).

But for another game, like say my Xen'drik "Blood war" between an emerging cult of native drow that worship an abomination called "Lolth" vs. the traditional Vulkoori worshipping tribes - I can't see that going to epic tier that easily.
 

Several people have mentioned concerns with the planar centric nature of epic level, as far as the monsters and the like. That it pulls away from the core campaign setting created over the last 20 levels.

I think there is a way around that if you wish...bring the extra planar home.

Instead of having the PCs journey to the planes, have extra planar creatures start coming into their yard and messing things up.

The only real question you have to answer is...why now? Why are these epic bad guys suddenly showing up just as the party hits 21st? There are a few ways to answer that.


1) The villian did it. Whatever your paragon villains machinations, it has drawn the attention of even worse evil. You may defeat the villain, but his legacy lives on.

2) The players did it. Either them stopping something caused something worse to happen, or the fact that they are gaining epic power is causing extra planar forces to take notice. If your campaign has never seen an epic level person....the fact that the PCs have hit that level may indicate something special is going on in that world that the extraplanar forces want a part of.


What makes this idea a good backdrop for an epic game is you get to utilize the superman plotline. Superman is nigh invincible....but his loved ones are not. The players can laugh death in the face...but their friends can't.

That puts a lot of the pressure right on the PCs. They will survive what's coming if they choose to leave...but their home may very well be wiped out.
 

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