The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[Barastrondo]

I don't really see how 4e is designed any differently in terms of the relationship of the PCs to the rest of the world than any other edition. PCs start out a bit stronger, but that has little to do with how epic level play goes. Really any issue being discussed here WRT 4e is pretty much true of all earlier editions as well, with the exception of 4e having a level 30 cap.

It's a question of scaling. For example, the earlier editions, once you got past name level, each new level that a PC gained added very little overall, with the exception of every other level for casters. You no longer got full hit dice every level, and the personal combat benefits tended to slow while the social benefits like stronghold founding were enabled. The difference between a 11th-level fighter and a 14th-level fighter was much slimmer than it was in 3e or 4e.

With one of the design goals of 3e being to make each level a more distinct power-up, the differences between levels became more pronounced. A 20th-level fighter has a lot more hit points and attack power in 3e than he did in 2e. In 4e, it becomes even more pronounced because ten more levels are added, with the same intent of making each one a notable power-up, plus the additional tier-wide powerups.

Definitely 3e increased the scaling, no argument there. But I think 4e has the most pronounced scaling of any version, with the potential exception of BECMI.

 

[Dausuul]

With one of the design goals of 3e being to make each level a more distinct power-up, the differences between levels became more pronounced. A 20th-level fighter has a lot more hit points and attack power in 3e than he did in 2e. In 4e, it becomes even more pronounced because ten more levels are added, with the same intent of making each one a notable power-up, plus the additional tier-wide powerups.

Definitely 3e increased the scaling, no argument there. But I think 4e has the most pronounced scaling of any version, with the potential exception of BECMI.

3E characters are designed to roughly double in power every 2 levels (emphasis on "roughly"). 4E characters double in power every 4 levels.

If you assume that a 1st-level character in 4E is the rough equivalent, power-wise, of a 5th-level character in 3E, then 30th level in 4E is slightly behind 20th level in 3E. And that's just in terms of raw combat munchkinry. The utility magic available to 3E characters (which is really what makes high-level play unmanageable) even at mid-levels dwarfs anything in 4E.

Of course, a large part of 3E's rapid scaling comes from magic items. The "Christmas tree effect" multiplies a high-level 3E character's power many times over. Constitution boosters provide a hit point boost that increases at a quadratic rate. Strength boosters are layered on top of weapon enhancement bonuses, and both get doubled or tripled by Improved Critical or the keen property. Weapons with elemental mods then stack on even more damage.

Also, this assumes reasonably optimized characters and a mix of classes. Fighters fall behind the power curve at the high levels, but the spellslingers more than make up for it.

 

[Aegeri]

4E can always fall back on the claim that at least it doesn't have Batman wizards or anything else silly in it. I remember my high level 3.5 games, they were basically dice rolls to see who won or lost instantly. If the PCs Wizard/Spellcaster went first the monsters were doomed. If the monsters went first and somehow got the Wizard/Cleric, then those two characters were utterly doomed.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The base numbers might be wider in 4th ed. But seriously. Look at the list of 9th level spells. Wish. Timestop. Shapechange. Polymorph Any Object at 8th. There is no way that 30th level 4e characters even approach that level of power. Remember: the key to strategy isn't defeating your opponent. It's making your opponent irrelevant.

 

[Aegeri]

It's also worth noting how under interpretation of both the DM and the PCs many of those powers are. They can range from backfiring horribly (if your DM disagrees with your interpretation) to basically instantly winning the game. The sheer number of "I win" spells in 3.5 is really impressive, especially when combined with any optimization at all.

4E Epic is Hard to play I concede, but it's nowhere near what 3.5 used to be.

 

[Barastrondo]

The base numbers might be wider in 4th ed. But seriously. Look at the list of 9th level spells. Wish. Timestop. Shapechange. Polymorph Any Object at 8th. There is no way that 30th level 4e characters even approach that level of power. Remember: the key to strategy isn't defeating your opponent. It's making your opponent irrelevant.

Yeah, but that becomes a caster vs. non-caster argument, which takes the whole thing sideways. Take a setting which assumes there are a number of epic-level people and threats that oppose them in the world. If the people with access to things like Wish and Shapechange on a regular basis are 5% of the epic population, that's an entirely different game dynamic than if they're 50% of the epic population.

 

[Dausuul]

Yeah, but that becomes a caster vs. non-caster argument, which takes the whole thing sideways. Take a setting which assumes there are a number of epic-level people and threats that oppose them in the world. If the people with access to things like Wish and Shapechange on a regular basis are 5% of the epic population, that's an entirely different game dynamic than if they're 50% of the epic population.

Even if you get rid of the epic spellslingers, I think you'll find that top-tier 3E characters are significantly stronger (relative to lowbies) than top-tier 4E characters.

Take a bog-standard, core-only 3.5E fighter at 20th level, using just what's in the SRD. I'll use the elite array for stats, not that any DM I ever met actually made players use such crappy stats, but they are the expected values. I'll put 15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 10 Int, 12 Wis, and 8 Cha. Standard wealth by level.

This character wields a +5 shocking frost falchion of speed (with Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical) and wears +5 mithral full plate of invulnerability. Other magic items include a +5 animated shield, +6 belt of giant strength, +5 amulet of natural armor, pink rhomboid ioun stone, dusty rose ioun stone, +4 gloves of dexterity, +5 ring of protection, +5 cloak of resistance, +4 manual of bodily health, +4 manual of gainful exercise, winged boots, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Hit Points: 214
AC: 44
Attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22
Average Damage per Attack (including crits): 44.7.
Saving Throws: Fort +24, Ref +16, Will +14

Now, compare that to a 30th-level 4E Essentials slayer fighter using only "Heroes of the Fallen Lands," whipped up using the Character Builder. This character is using +6 greatsword, scale armor, and amulet, along with epic-tier bracers of mighty striking and gauntlets of blood. Feats include Heavy Blade Expertise, Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade), and the defense-boosting feats.

Hit Points: 237
AC: 44
Attack: +38
Average Damage per Attack (including crits): 60.64*
Defenses: Fort 49, Ref 44, Will 38

[size=-2]*Using Battle Wrath. The character gets +3 to damage rolls when bloodied and +6 to damage rolls versus bloodied foes. I'm assuming each of these will apply about half the time. In addition, I am assuming the character will Power Strike 40% of the time for 3d10 bonus damage, and that the character will crit on 10% of hits.[/size]

As you can see, they have nearly identical attack bonus, AC, and hit points--the 4E fighter has a slight advantage in two out of three, but nothing major. The 4E fighter has much better non-AC defenses, but will face correspondingly more difficult non-AC attacks. The 4E fighter hits about 33% harder... but the 3E fighter's "Cuisinart Strike" power, also known as a full attack, more than makes up for that.

Now consider that a 1st-level character in 3E has far fewer hit points, lower AC, and lower damage than a 1st-level character in 4E. You can see that 3E scales faster, even after you adjust for 4E's higher level cap.

 

[Aegeri]

Dausuul: It's also important to realize that a 3.5E fighter was usually autohitting AC by the late point of the game and epic tier (as attack bonuses rapidly outscaled defenses by a long way). So you can throw in things like power attack on this first few attacks without any worry. Whereas in 4E, while a Slayer is pretty accurate when charging around literally everywhere he's not quite as "lolwut" accurate.

 

[Barastrondo]

So... comparable hit points, attack bonus, and armor class. The 4E fighter has much better non-AC defenses, but will face correspondingly more difficult non-AC attacks. The 4E fighter hits about 33% harder... but the 3E fighter's "Cuisinart Strike" power, also known as a full attack, more than makes up for that.

There's also something of a gulf in magic items. The 3e fighter has weapons that add bonus damage and a small pile of attribute-boosting items. But yes, point taken.

 

[Dausuul]

There's also something of a gulf in magic items. The 3e fighter has weapons that add bonus damage and a small pile of attribute-boosting items.

Well, yes, but that's an expected part of a 3E character. 3E fighters are extremely item-dependent; you can't take away their Christmas trees and expect them to perform to standard.