The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[pemerton]

I think the 'Dungeon Delve' 3-encounter model is a vastly, vastly better one for Epic play than is the 30-encounter 'Prince of Undeath'.

I'm inclined to think this is true at all levels!

 

[vagabundo]

I'm inclined to think this is true at all levels!

Then what would we pad the rest of their time with? Like talking and stuff??

 

[S'mon]

I'm inclined to think this is true at all levels!

I think the lengthy dungeon worked well in eg 1e, with its emphasis on exploration. It worked ok in low-level 3e where fights were still fairly quick. It does not work well in 4e at any level - running battles & adventures at 1st level in 4e feels quite a lot like those Epic deity-level battles & adventures I used to run in 1e!

So, yes, I think you're right. I own a bunch of long 4e adventures, but neither of my current 4e campaigns has used any of them, and both have benefitted from a focus on short adventures, typically 1 session. One is about to go into its 4th episode of 'The Slaying Stone', and that is really too long IMO. Next time I run a published adventure I'm going to be ruthless in cutting out unnecessary fights.

 

[pemerton]

I own a bunch of long 4e adventures, but neither of my current 4e campaigns has used any of them

I did the Chamber of Eyes from H2 as a standalone, taking 2 or 3 sessions. I did the Well of Demons from the same module separately, and it took at least 4 sessions, I think, but had quite a bit in it, and split up nicely into distinct sections - the gnolls, the demons themselves, then the "guardian" and the final ritual room. And it didn't have any filler.

I've got no interest in filler. I've got enough trouble fitting in the non-filler stuff that I want to deal with in the campaign!

Then what would we pad the rest of their time with?

I think that D&D has always had an issue with too much padding.

The "Burning THACO" pdf, with ideas on how to run D&D modules for Burning Wheel, is good on this:

it seems that every module I pick up has the structural integrity of mushy peas. You'll have to take it into your own hands. Front load conflict. The first module I ran for this group (The Vakhund), had the players join up with a caravan in a town and described days of journey before it got to the point that something happened (other than random encounters, natch). We're talking potentially hours of play before something significant happens...

A lot of obstacles and opposition in modules is filler. It's there to take up time, to provide a reason for the niche skills of one type of character, or to make the experience seem "real." It's ok to leave a few of these in for old time's sake, but mostly, unless it's something your players will really get a kick out of, just go ahead and invoke the Say Yes or Roll Dice rule. Give maybe a sentence describing how the characters overcame the obstacle and move on.​

This was writen about AD&D modules, but I think can be true even of 4e modules.

Not all of them, though. I've used a couple of the mini-modules from Open Grave, for examle, and they're good. I only use them when I already have an idea about how the scenario fits into the game, and they only have a handful of encounters which are all directly to the point.

 

[Ryujin]

Does Vecna benefit from this aura himself, or does being the origin point of the aura negate himself?

He's an "undead creature within the aura", so I'd say he's effected too.

It's sad. Our group's usual DM doesn't want to run into Epic, largely based on the (lack of) quality support for Epic Tier. I was looking forward to it, but he cut us off upon reaching level 20. In our our new campaign, he has already stated that it's likely to top out between 16th and 18th.
http://daxibeidelang.teasm.cn/Index.aspx

Our group had the same problem. We ran right up to 20, then the DM called it. He said that it was due to there not being any good adventures beyond that point, but I'm firmly convinced that he bought into it being too difficult, because of comments he read online.

Unfortunately it means that he read all of the available material, and he has a phenomenal memory, so it screwed me for running any of the stuff released to that point if he's going to participate. I'll work it out.

 

[pippenainteasy]

He's an "undead creature within the aura", so I'd say he's effected too.

The main confusion I have is the glossary definition of an aura which says: An aura does not affect the originating creature unless the text specifies otherwise.

So the question is, does Vecna count as one of the undead in the aura, or would the description have to say, "all undead creatures within the aura including Vecna?

 

[Ryujin]

The main confusion I have is the glossary definition of an aura which says: An aura does not affect the originating creature unless the text specifies otherwise.

So the question is, does Vecna count as one of the undead in the aura, or would the description have to say, "all undead creatures within the aura including Vecna?

The description of auras implies no, but the text of the aura implies yes. As implication isn't direct statement I'll have to retract my previous comment, but I'd still do it anyway

 

[MerricB]

Personally I think the 'Dungeon Delve' 3-encounter model is a vastly, vastly better one for Epic play than is the 30-encounter 'Prince of Undeath'. I think that lengthy slogs are an appallingly bad choice of design for Epic, and the source of this belief that Epic is 'more of the same'.

Prince of Undeath has been an interesting experience so far. Some of the encounters have been really entertaining (twin beholders are great fun!), and we've avoided too many "slog" encounters. The pacing is much, much better than E2.

Of course, it helps that with only 3 players (+ Splug) the encounters go by pretty fast. 4-5 encounters per 3.5 hour session is nice. Mind you, I'm waiting for the grind to set in as we go deeper into the Abyss.

The biggest problem with the adventures (and it goes for Paizo's APs as well) is that requiring a target level at the end of the adventure often causes a lot of padding in there. I can think of a lot of dungeons that are grossly overinflated just because there need to be enough encounters for the next level to be gained. (An alternative of a few REALLY TOUGH ENCOUNTERS, like Spire of Long Shadows doesn't work that well, either).

However, because the first section of Prince of Undeath was getting control of the Chaos Ship, and there weren't actually that many encounters in the Hold (and quite a few of them felt like advancing the plot), it worked really well.

Cheers!

 

[Motorskills]

I'm new to 4e, but not new to D&D.

I have to say I'm a little surprised by this conversation. I know there was some politics involved, but WOTC presumably still owns the rights to the concepts developed in BECMI.

Whilst the implementation was a little shaky, the idea of two tiers above 'simple adventurers' was well-established via the Companion and Master boxed sets (and later in the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set).

D&D went from L1 to L36, which is essentially compatible with the 4e L1 to L30

At Companion level (L15-L25), the idea was that you and your merry band of entrepreneurs could be done with making a living killing monsters for their stuff. The campaign documentation supported developing domains, fighting wars and sieges and so on. Of course there would still be plenty for high-level PCs to do that employed all their dubious talents on a regional or even global basis.

At Master level, (L26 to L36) you were essentially done even with that, and would be on the hunt for one of the four PC Paths to Immortality. That would involve world-spanning, and planar-spanning, fun-and-games.
Pretty clever stuff really.

IIRC, first You needed to find an Artifact (an Immortal-level magic item that was specifically 'buried' somewhere by your Immortal patron, for you to quest to find.) Then you would need to either

i) create a Dynasty, and time-travel to help your descendants out three times over the next 1000 years, per the prophecy that you yourself created(!)

ii) change the landscape for 100(?) miles around. I mean really change it. One of the Mystara regions is now comprised of floating islands. Another is a super-giant-tree forest (Elf-ville, natch).

There were a couple of other routes.

The baddies had their own Path to Immortality (in the Sphere of Entropy). That was deliberately not described in detail, but it would often involved KILLING EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD! (You might also have to betray your closest friend, corrupt the land for 100 miles around etc.)


As I said, the implementation was a bit shaky, but we coped as always. It seems to be that Paragon and Epic campaigns could do worse than tap into those concepts (perhaps as dedicated books / boxed sets?)


Finally, BECMI Immortals were exactly that. They couldn't die. The worst that could happen was that you forced them to recreate another temporary mortal shell, while all their Immortal buddies laughed at them for losing to a bunch of normals.

I really dislike the idea of deities being just another monster to fight.

 

[Motorskills]

Update: having had a brief opportunity to review (the excellent!) Dark Dungeons, I would note a few things.

First, although domain management and mass warfare/siege rules are well-described, those can off-putting to people that want to play their 20th level rogues, rather than 20th level accountants. It is up to the DM and his players to work out how those aspects of mid-high level play should appear their game, and to what extent.
The guide to playing PARAGON-level should describe the role that a high-level group can play. Threats to the realm should be large-scale (e.g. invasion), and require the PCs to use their skills in a much wider forum.

Secondly, although I note that Dark Dungeons goes into significant detail about Immortals, it pretty much skips over the requirements to become one, you just seem to need a hella lot of XP. That's a shame, since the chapter title suggests otherwise.

Now to some extent "just XP" is not necessarily a bad thing; one of the issues with the BECMI Paths to Immortality was that they weren't really set up for a party to achieve. At least with XP, everyone can qualify, and it's up to the DM to determine what's required to be done to earn that XP.

But I think it's a missed opportunity. I thought the Paths to Immortality - or at least the basic ideas behind them - were superb, and truly met the requirement of EPIC (which is what the bulk of this thread is complaining about.)

As for the Paths not being suited for a party of adventurers, that's only partly true. I think the DM can and should be able to create a Master/EPIC level campaign that requires all the adventurers to work together, and allows them to ascend as a group.

Unfortunately BECMI didn't really address that at all. But I see that very much as a straightforward problem that can be overcome.
(IIRC there was a group of Immortals referenced in one splatbook, elfy GAZ5 mebbe, that had ascended together.)