The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[Dausuul]

My DM is very anxious to get us to Paragon Tier (so much so, that we level after prettymuch every session). She just wants to run stories with Paragon scope and theme.

I find I like Heroic, even low Heroic, but that may be in part because of tastes formed under earlier eds when the game fell apart at high levels. (In some cases 'high' meaning 9th).

Ha, that's funny. My experience is it usually works in reverse: The players are champing at the bit to get to the high levels with the cool powers, and the DM wants to keep the campaign at low level where it's easier to manage.

 

[Ryujin]

Ha, that's funny. My experience is it usually works in reverse: The players are champing at the bit to get to the high levels with the cool powers, and the DM wants to keep the campaign at low level where it's easier to manage.

That was certainly me, as a player character. I had a character concept that only became on-par with other strikers at Paragon, and became really good (though still not optimized) at Epic and just when we hit 20th, the DM declared we were done

It was a Fey/Darklock with Bard multiclass, that would be teleporting around the battlefield in a blur of light, while doing an additional 9 points of radiant fire damage to all cursed opponents.

 

[Sunseeker]

That was certainly me, as a player character. I had a character concept that only became on-par with other strikers at Paragon, and became really good (though still not optimized) at Epic and just when we hit 20th, the DM declared we were done

It was a Fey/Darklock with Bard multiclass, that would be teleporting around the battlefield in a blur of light, while doing an additional 9 points of radiant fire damage to all cursed opponents.

You should run your own then, start at Paragon and go up from there.

 

[Ryujin]

You should run your own then, start at Paragon and go up from there.

That's the plan. Working on it now.

 

[Sunseeker]

That's the plan. Working on it now.

Be sure to drop back by and tell us how it goes!

 

[Ryujin]

Be sure to drop back by and tell us how it goes!

I'll certainly do that. My current plan is to start at perhaps 9th level to quickly step the characters into their Paragon Paths, to give them an immediate sense of accomplishment, then work up into Epic. Our current DM, who isn't fond of Epic, has been missing a lot of sessions lately and I want to set up at least a backup game.

 

[functionciccio]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think we need revised rules for epic level combat. And improved epic level threats.
The new (post MM3) monsters are fine, but the epic ones need to be more hardcore, expecially the "named" ones, like archfiends, archfeys, gods and primordials.

Right now, the worst thing that can happen while facing a god, is being pushed 10 squares. It's ridiculous.

I think epic level monsters need powers like the old 3.5 "save or die" mechanics, or "save and drop to 0 hp" or even "save and be bloodied" type of attacks. On a regular basis. Top tier epic level monsters should have the power to kill the PCs (or severely cripple them) with one attack. And the PCs should know that. And fear that.

I mean, Lolth's poison (the poison of the most bad@SS spider in the universe) should KILL me if I fail a save!

We know that epic PCs are super powerful, and have many ways to avoid\reduce\redirect\heal damage and\or attacks and\or effects, and are even able to get back from the dead almost without issues. Well, fine, but we (DMs) should give them a run for their money.

sorry for my bad english

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think Orcus DOES have an SoD...

There are some fairly nasty powers out there on some of the demon lords for instance, but yeah, not quite as extreme as some of the stuff you would find on a 1e demon lord. OTOH you can easily make changes or build environmental or other conditions into encounters that provide those elements. I'd imagine a battle with Demogorgon would involve some pretty harsh conditions. He's not going to stand around and take on the party on his lawn. He's going to be prepared, and it is going to be UNPLEASANT.

 

[Ryujin]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think we need revised rules for epic level combat. And improved epic level threats.
The new (post MM3) monsters are fine, but the epic ones need to be more hardcore, expecially the "named" ones, like archfiends, archfeys, gods and primordials.

Right now, the worst thing that can happen while facing a god, is being pushed 10 squares. It's ridiculous.

I think epic level monsters need powers like the old 3.5 "save or die" mechanics, or "save and drop to 0 hp" or even "save and be bloodied" type of attacks. On a regular basis. Top tier epic level monsters should have the power to kill the PCs (or severely cripple them) with one attack. And the PCs should know that. And fear that.

I mean, Lolth's poison (the poison of the most bad@SS spider in the universe) should KILL me if I fail a save!

We know that epic PCs are super powerful, and have many ways to avoidreduceredirectheal damage andor attacks andor effects, and are even able to get back from the dead almost without issues. Well, fine, but we (DMs) should give them a run for their money.

sorry for my bad english

If it was a party of Paragon adventurers going up against Lolth, then I would agree. In fact the ongoing damage can essentially be a save (or a few saves), or die in that case. When it comes to Epic level characters though, you're talking about demigods and creatures who can warp reality, taking on major demons, demigods, and gods. Such creatures shouldn't drop from one strike. They should be able to fight for days on end, laying waste to continents.

Then again I've NEVER been a fan of the save or die mechanic. Characters, that die in my campaign, generally do so through a mistake in tactics or judgment; not at the whim of a die roll.

[MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION], I've started my campaign and have already run several sessions in Pyramid of Shadows. I figured that I would run one adventure prior to the characters attaining Paragon, so that the players weren't stuck learning their characters abilities completely cold. So far, so good. They're enjoying themselves.

 

[Aegeri]

I think Orcus DOES have an SoD...

Sort of. It reduces you to zero HP but doesn't actually mean you die. So Epic Destiny features and powers can easily circumvent it. It's still pretty nasty though, but it doesn't quite get to SoD levels.