The Slow Death of Epic Tier

Regarding why Epic threats don't take over the world, I have a working theory. They say that when the student is ready, the master will appear. I tend to think that when the hero is ready, the villian will appear.

We're talking about things like the end of an Age of the World. The ring is cast into Mount Doom. Konrad finds that the ice is melting. Magic fades from the world. The Eternal Champion dies, his soul moving on to his next life.

Of course this makes it difficult if you're playing multiple groups, in the same world, but it could make for some interesting storylines for the other groups also. Think about what World of Warcraft is doing, these days.
 

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Of course this makes it difficult if you're playing multiple groups, in the same world, but it could make for some interesting storylines for the other groups also. Think about what World of Warcraft is doing, these days.

If you've got multiple groups. having the epic fallout of one group's activities affect all the others is something that works best if each group is playing basically the same theme of game. If you have diversely themed games in the same world, it can get trickier. For instance, one group is doing "classic" D&D but another is playing an urban swashbuckler game -- a situation that I'm involved in right now -- having a classic D&D epic world-shaking event involving hordes of demons or flights of dragons would derail the urban swashbuckling game severely. The players might have an interesting new set of problems, but they also wouldn't be playing the game they signed up for.

Of course, I'll freely admit that I tend to be in the minority; I don't think that many people out there run such differently themed games set in the same game world. D&D encourages entire worlds to be built around themes, such as Athas or Dragonlance.
 

If you've got multiple groups. having the epic fallout of one group's activities affect all the others is something that works best if each group is playing basically the same theme of game. If you have diversely themed games in the same world, it can get trickier. For instance, one group is doing "classic" D&D but another is playing an urban swashbuckler game -- a situation that I'm involved in right now -- having a classic D&D epic world-shaking event involving hordes of demons or flights of dragons would derail the urban swashbuckling game severely. The players might have an interesting new set of problems, but they also wouldn't be playing the game they signed up for.

Of course, I'll freely admit that I tend to be in the minority; I don't think that many people out there run such differently themed games set in the same game world. D&D encourages entire worlds to be built around themes, such as Athas or Dragonlance.

Do the 'heroes' move from one urban centre to another? One way to deal with this, in your sort of campaign, might be to change up the sort of travelling encounters they have. If the world is being invaded by the Far Realm then they start running into more aberrations, less natural creatures. If they occupy the same large city, the whole time, then they might be able to take advantage of the odd distraction created by the city guard all being called up, to defend the walls.

In most cases the fallout could be treated as exactly that; relatively minor incidents on the periphery of the main epic warfare. Collateral damage. Spill-over.
 

Do the 'heroes' move from one urban centre to another? One way to deal with this, in your sort of campaign, might be to change up the sort of travelling encounters they have. If the world is being invaded by the Far Realm then they start running into more aberrations, less natural creatures. If they occupy the same large city, the whole time, then they might be able to take advantage of the odd distraction created by the city guard all being called up, to defend the walls.

In most cases the fallout could be treated as exactly that; relatively minor incidents on the periphery of the main epic warfare. Collateral damage. Spill-over.

Sure, it's possible. But the theme's the thing. Aberrations are terrible at engaging in witty banter mid-duel. Demons decline to show up at neutral occasions like a grand ball and sneer at the PCs over their wineglasses. (Devils might, on the other hand.) Ravening zombie hordes don't employ courtesans in their intrigues. And it's a rare apocalyptic fire elemental that will attempt to woo and then abandon your chaste cousin solely to anger you. One of the grand set pieces of a swashbuckling game is the civilized but malicious enemy.

I figure there are at least two basic problems that would necessitate solving (and they could be solved, though it would take careful consideration). The first would be making sure that whatever epic conflict is affecting the entire world, it has applications that are in-genre for other games that they affect. The second would be figuring out ways that the lower-level games could either end their engagement early (if they don't care for the crossover material) or extend it past the point at which the epic-level characters have "fixed" the problem (if they like it and don't want it to stop).

These are both pretty tricky, because optimally each campaign is designed for the needs of the group. An epic fallout event is technically designing one campaign for the needs of the other, which is pretty great for the epic game that's taking precedence, but not necessarily for the others.
 

It can go both ways actually. The epic group could easily be the ones dealing with the fallout from some other lower level group's actions. Rescue missions would be an obvious crossover, though that might not be too easy work logistically. Other possibilities exist though. Any scenario where you might have a group go back and fix something they messed up at a lower level could be recast this way.

Maybe the most successful kind of situation would simply be using the epic action to provide a simple backdrop and some story drivers for a differently themed lower level story. The swashbuckling intrigue game plays well at paragon for instance, but setting it against the War of the Gods being played out in epic should work pretty well. The epic action could be fairly distant and just serve to explain some of what happens in the intrigue game.

Having run my original setting through a whole slew of cycles of different levels of play and parallel groups I find you can do it. One easy approach is just the 'surviving the storm' theme where some heroic adventurers try to keep their town or whatnot in one piece while the rest of the world falls apart around them.
 

Sure, it's possible. But the theme's the thing. Aberrations are terrible at engaging in witty banter mid-duel. Demons decline to show up at neutral occasions like a grand ball and sneer at the PCs over their wineglasses. (Devils might, on the other hand.) Ravening zombie hordes don't employ courtesans in their intrigues. And it's a rare apocalyptic fire elemental that will attempt to woo and then abandon your chaste cousin solely to anger you. One of the grand set pieces of a swashbuckling game is the civilized but malicious enemy.

I figure there are at least two basic problems that would necessitate solving (and they could be solved, though it would take careful consideration). The first would be making sure that whatever epic conflict is affecting the entire world, it has applications that are in-genre for other games that they affect. The second would be figuring out ways that the lower-level games could either end their engagement early (if they don't care for the crossover material) or extend it past the point at which the epic-level characters have "fixed" the problem (if they like it and don't want it to stop).

These are both pretty tricky, because optimally each campaign is designed for the needs of the group. An epic fallout event is technically designing one campaign for the needs of the other, which is pretty great for the epic game that's taking precedence, but not necessarily for the others.

Ah, I see the problem. You're mixing up your memes:

- Demons employ courtesans, in their court intrigues (succubi)
- Devils engage in whitty banter, mid-duel or at parties
- Aberrations and zombies are plagues; the sort of thing that strikes fear deep in the heart of any medieval city-dweller
- Fire elementals are merely the personification of another medieval city-dwellers' primal fear; fire

So buckle that swash, whydoncha.
 

Maybe the most successful kind of situation would simply be using the epic action to provide a simple backdrop and some story drivers for a differently themed lower level story. The swashbuckling intrigue game plays well at paragon for instance, but setting it against the War of the Gods being played out in epic should work pretty well. The epic action could be fairly distant and just serve to explain some of what happens in the intrigue game.

That's more or less what I see as the basis for a workable model. The question that keeps drawing me back, though, is sort of this: "What's the advantage of a crossover event compared to the more tightly themed and personalized content that's the default?" The stakes are higher, but also more generic; when the elemental incursion happens, it really doesn't matter if it's another PC group or a bunch of NPCs that were the trigger, you're still dealing with someone else's mess instead of chasing your own ambitions. I think that's an unfortunate trade-off.

Having run my original setting through a whole slew of cycles of different levels of play and parallel groups I find you can do it. One easy approach is just the 'surviving the storm' theme where some heroic adventurers try to keep their town or whatnot in one piece while the rest of the world falls apart around them.

The trouble I have with that focus is that it cannibalizes themes, turning them into "survive the apocalypse." I realize I'm emphasizing the importance of theme and subgenre here a lot, but basically the games I run are things the players have voted on. When I run a swashbuckler, that's because the group decided that option (out of the 20 or so confronted with) appealed to them the most, in part influenced by a fondness for Assassin's Creed, I figure. Turning that game into a "brace against Armageddon" game would be a bait-and-switch.

Ah, I see the problem. You're mixing up your memes:

- Demons employ courtesans, in their court intrigues (succubi)
- Devils engage in whitty banter, mid-duel or at parties

(succubi are devils now)

I've considered this, actually, but all the best reasons I come up with for infernal intrigues playing out in the courts that PCs move in, particularly those that are playing a subtle game, instead of just marching a legion into the throne room and taking command, don't really require world-shaking epic events. They have a fascinating dynamic when the infernal types are bound by some rules to "play by the letter of the law" or cannot reveal themselves openly, and that plays at least as well in a stable world than one on the brink.

- Aberrations and zombies are plagues; the sort of thing that strikes fear deep in the heart of any medieval city-dweller
- Fire elementals are merely the personification of another medieval city-dwellers' primal fear; fire

To my ear those come across more like staging methods to set up an urban terror event than urban swashbucklers; there's the city element, but there's terror instead of panache. And an urban apocalypse is a decent idea for a game in its own right -- but if the players are signed up for a swashbuckler, they may very well prefer that to an urban apocalypse.

So buckle that swash, whydoncha.

It's already being buckled quite effectively, sans distractions. That's kind of the trouble I'm getting at: the way that Big Stakes Based On Some Other Group's Deeds tend to move the action away from the content that's personalized for this group.
 

Howdy Matrix Sorcica! :)

Matrix Sorcica said:
Yes, please. I'm worried we won't see your super-solo rules before 5E if you don't get the rules out ;)

Next up is the Vampire Bestiary, after that I'll see about those tiny rules pdfs. ;)

I realise you're not a full time writer and never has been. I'm just worried as I said. Please put my worries to shame :)

Thats the plan. :p
 

I think the major challenge would be getting the dragon to come within arrow range of your militia. If you're going to get into this kind of 'realistic' extrapolation scenario then I still don't see a viable way for the militia to come to grips with the dragon. It is going to fly overhead at 500', laugh at the peasants below and go burn their crops and fields, then go home and wait for them to get hungry and disband. With its huge mobility, the total infeasibility of ambushing a creature that flies, and its vast firepower superiority at any specific place and time any kind of 'realistic' military action of this kind against it is virtually doomed to failure.

Obviously the PCs have their work cut out for them. No doubt the players would come up with some interesting ploys. They might even work.
One epic daily, engagement is no longer the Dragon's choice. I made this point. If you assume a mortal population and epic creatures, then among the mortal population there are going to be epic characters. These have Don't Need to Hit effects like prone/dominate/etc and the ability to rapidly travel from place to place via portals or what have you, then 1,000 peasant archers and one of the mortal epic people who guard/rule/run the kingdom can take out any epic level monster. Since they can do so in two rounds the equation comes down to one daily from a mortal epic NPC = one dead epic creature that was attacking the town.
 

I think the major challenge would be getting the dragon to come within arrow range of your militia. If you're going to get into this kind of 'realistic' extrapolation scenario then I still don't see a viable way for the militia to come to grips with the dragon. It is going to fly overhead at 500', laugh at the peasants below and go burn their crops and fields, then go home and wait for them to get hungry and disband. With its huge mobility, the total infeasibility of ambushing a creature that flies, and its vast firepower superiority at any specific place and time any kind of 'realistic' military action of this kind against it is virtually doomed to failure.

Not sure what the rules say on ranges, but flame simply doesn't travel that far. 500 feet is an enormous distance for flame to travel from a single source, being pushed only by the sheer breath-force of the dragon.
 

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