The Slow Death of Epic Tier

Indeed. We generally used to bypass the villains army/servants (when possible) and go straight for the jugular (Command Tent, Throne Room, Divine Realm). A typical ultra-high level 'adventure' was probably 3-4 encounters. The whole idea of having 90 epic tier encounters building up to a confrontation with Orcus just seems a bit pedantic. Cut the head off the snake and the body dies.

Plan A: Get in - Kill The Guards - Kill Him - Get Out. End of.
Plan B: We need Macguffin 'x' to have a chance. Travel to the Place - Kill the Guards - Get It - Get Out - See Plan A.
Plan C: Infiltration, we need some piece of information (location of Macguffin 'x' maybe). Sneak In - Kill The Guards (and take their uniforms) - Find the Information - Get Out - See Plan B.
Plan D: We can't kill the BBEG directly (political reasons maybe, or just he is that powerful), so we have to weaken him indirectly. Find his weakness(es) - Exploit Them - Kill Some Guards anyway - Get Out - See Plan C.
Plan E: We need to Defend Something or Someone from the forces of the BBEG, who have invaded. We Are The Guards (so don't get killed) - Hold the Line - Attack Retreating Enemy - See Plan D for seeking revenge.

So most of the time, the goal will be simple (defeat the BBEG). In and of itself thats a very short adventure. You can expand it by putting more and more obstacles in the way and shifting the goalposts to different objectives.

However, you have to imagine that there is a limit to how far you can credibly stretch out a threat/theme before it gets a bit stale.

Well, there is a LOT more to an epic story arc, potentially. It could go something like:


  1. Appearance of the threat. In the course of tying up whatever portion of the story happens in paragon tier the characters become aware of a greater threat. This threat might already be implicit in the setting, but it now becomes a matter that has direct relevance for the PCs. This phase further involves the acquisition of knowledge and information. This is good for at least 1 and possibly 2-3 adventures.
  2. Reconnaissance. Once some information has been gathered on the possible nature of the threat the party sets out to find answers to questions which require interacting with the threat in a fairly direct manner. This could be investigating remote locations, etc. The general theme being learning more directly and answering specific questions.
  3. Marshalling of Forces. McGuffins may need to be gathered or made, specific allies recruited, etc. The characters acquire the tools needed to defeat the threat.
  4. Direct Action. The characters take on the threat directly, ultimately leading to their victory or defeat.
Each one of these phases can be reordered, interjected into the others, repeated, etc in a wide variety of ways. Entire sub-arcs can be created which recapitulate various elements of each phase in a narrower context, etc. The key parts are a fairly overall thematic linkage, epic scale, and epic action.

I can't imagine not being able to fill 10 levels with this kind of thing. It really shouldn't be that hard at all. I can also imagine condensing it all down to a single level if you were so inclined.

Note too that while all elements will have some overall thematic linkage they don't require a narrow kind of tactical theme. The characters might need to engage the mighty Arch Fey in the course of seeking knowledge and information. This could involve various fetch quests, etc. Then they might need to seek a lost library in the Elemental Chaos (or some remote location in the world etc). Each of these can involve totally different kinds of opponents. The next phase might involve some travel and delving in order to learn more about the enemy (traveling into the far icy wastes of the north in an attempt to figure out where the legions of the Ice Lord come from). You get the idea. At each stage agents of the BBEG might show up now and then to harass the party.
 

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The "why haven't the epic level threats long since overtaken the world" sort of question is just one of those many observations about a D&D style world that is never going to really be answered. Trying to rationalize how such a world works never leads anywhere terribly profitable. The other thing is it isn't a question that is somehow unique to epic tier.

You could imagine that a high heroic tier threat MIGHT be restrained by the existence in the ordinary course of things of other figures in the world that are capable of standing up to them, but you're already FAR beyond the level of what 95% of the ordinary (non-PC) population of the world has ANY hope of dealing with mechanically. The town guard is going to handle a couple ogres? Really? I doubt it. Certainly not by fighting them!

Certainly yes, by fighting them. You underestimate what fifty 8th-level minions can accomplish with bows and longspears. It's quite doable.

In fact, after crunching some numbers and looking at the results, I'm revising my opinions. A lot of people on both sides of this debate, including me, have been taking for granted that an epic-level threat is simply beyond the ability of "town guardsmen" to handle. But, y'know... now that there is no longer any such thing as damage reduction versus ordinary weapons, that isn't true any more. Through the magic of natural 20s and the law of large numbers, a sufficient number of human soldiers can take on ancient dragons and demon princes and emerge victorious.

Moreover, "sufficient number" is often lower than you might think--certainly lower than I thought when I started doing the math. Suppose a human soldier is a minion who deals 8 points of damage per hit, and hits on a natural 20. Suppose further that 50% of the minions are in a position to attack at any given time (the rest are infantry who are out of reach of the threat, or archers whose line of sight is blocked).

Then against a foe with 1,000 hit points, who kills 5 minions per round, you need, on average... 222 minions to win. That's a substantial force, but well within the ability of any decent-sized town to field. I played around a bit with Lolth from Monster Manual 3 and found that with 480 men, fighting in an open field, you can force her to discorporate even with the most generous assumptions on her behalf (e.g., any burst or blast attack hits the maximum possible number of targets, Lolth's attacks never miss, a dominated foe always kills one ally per turn, etc.).

Still thinking through the ramifications of this, but epic tier is clearly not as inherently wahoo as I had thought. Powerful though they are, epic creatures cannot simply wade through armies and expect to survive. A hundred epic-level monsters can be overwhelmed by ordinary mortal humans; you may need twenty or thirty thousand of them to pull it off, and a leader who can inspire them to suicidal heroism, but you can do it.
 
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Certainly yes, by fighting them. You underestimate what fifty 8th-level minions can do with bows and longspears. It's quite doable.

In fact, after crunching some numbers and looking at the results, I'm revising my opinions. A lot of people on both sides of this debate, including me, have been taking for granted that an epic-level threat is simply beyond the ability of "town guardsmen" to handle. But, y'know... now that there is no longer any such thing as damage reduction versus ordinary weapons, that isn't true any more. Through the magic of natural 20s and the law of large numbers, a sufficient number of human soldiers can take on ancient dragons and demon princes and emerge victorious.

Moreover, "sufficient number" is often lower than you might think--certainly lower than I thought when I started doing the math. Suppose a human soldier is a minion who deals 8 points of damage per hit, and hits on a natural 20. Suppose further that 50% of the minions are in a position to attack at any given time (the rest are infantry who are out of reach of the threat, or archers whose line of sight is blocked).

Then against a foe with 1,000 hit points, who kills 5 minions per round, you need, on average... 222 minions to win. That's a substantial force, but well within the ability of any decent-sized town to field. I played around a bit with Lolth from Monster Manual 3 and found that with 480 men, fighting in an open field, you can force her to discorporate even with the most generous assumptions on her behalf (e.g., any burst or blast attack hits the maximum possible number of targets, Lolth's attacks never miss, a dominated foe always kills one ally per turn, etc.).

Still thinking through the ramifications of this, but epic tier is clearly not as inherently wahoo as I had thought. Epic foes are fearsome but cannot simply wade through armies and expect to survive.

Eh, as a practical matter I wouldn't think it to be likely that ordinary forces would have any luck against threats much more than 5 levels beyond them. Sure, by theorycraft a large number of minions can hypothetically do pretty well. The question is more what would actually happen. Now, I suspect that my example ogres could be handled by a reasonable human town. The town probably has some physical security mechanisms (walls for instance) that an ogre can't just ignore and as you point out if the town guard can muster enough people in a single place it is certainly possible to mechanically beat down a threat of this type. This would however presume sufficient planning and organization, strong leadership, and a rather high degree of individual dedication not usually seen. Presumably threats in this kind of range will be dealt with in some fashion, usually by hiring adventurers or having a special class of warriors or a religious order that has this function.

Lets consider a dragon though. Very few dragons are idiotic enough to involve themselves in a fight with several hundred humans under conditions where the humans have any chance of victory. Not only that but I think you underestimate the difficulty of raising a force of this size. Raising 100 trained militia will require a base population to draw from on the order of 30,000 people. Thus raising 500 men to stand up to the local Red Dragon could well require the resources of a fairly large duchy or something like that. Said dragon will almost certainly be looting North Wazumbaville while said militia is off guarding the Duke's Castle. I'd lay high odds on the dragon totally dominating this situation.
 

Lets consider a dragon though. Very few dragons are idiotic enough to involve themselves in a fight with several hundred humans under conditions where the humans have any chance of victory. Not only that but I think you underestimate the difficulty of raising a force of this size. Raising 100 trained militia will require a base population to draw from on the order of 30,000 people. Thus raising 500 men to stand up to the local Red Dragon could well require the resources of a fairly large duchy or something like that. Said dragon will almost certainly be looting North Wazumbaville while said militia is off guarding the Duke's Castle. I'd lay high odds on the dragon totally dominating this situation.

Where are you getting these numbers? This is militia--farmers taking up arms to defend their homes, not a professional standing army. There was a while in medieval England when every able-bodied man was required to have a longbow and be trained in its use. In a country with a strong militia tradition--and in a D&D world, that ought to include pretty much everywhere--I should think you could call up as much as 10-20% of the population to defend a settlement, and do it on very short notice, too.

Obviously, militia wouldn't have nearly the training and discipline of a professional force, and an epic-level threat could often rout them by sheer terror. But don't underestimate the willingness of people to fight for their land.

Now look at it from the dragon's perspective. Dragons aren't dumb. What's the tradeoff here? If the dragon wins, it gets a paltry town's worth of loot; maybe a few trinkets from the mayor's house. If it loses--it dies. That's a bad gamble even at highly favorable odds. The richer targets, like a duke's castle, will be correspondingly more "hardened," with stone walls and professional soldiers guarding them.

The end result of this is that a dragon, even an elder or ancient, isn't going to just fly about wreaking havoc. When it gets hungry, it will raid an outlying settlement, snatch up some livestock or peasants from the farms on the periphery, and vanish back into the night. When it wants plunder, it will look for a merchant caravan. Direct dragon attacks on towns and cities will be rare, because they depend heavily on the dragon's ability to catch the town off guard. Once word spreads that a marauding dragon is ravaging the land, people will make plans and be ready for it.

And dragons are a really extraordinary case. They're one of the hardest foes for a "town guardsmen" force to take on--intelligent, highly mobile, with lots of area attacks and a big "shock and awe" factor. A typical high-level monster threat looks more like a gang of ogres or giants; they're big, they're bad, but they won't fare well against a fortified settlement, and a strong kingdom could mount a punitive expedition to hunt them down and wipe them out.
 
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Where are you getting these numbers? This is militia--farmers taking up arms to defend their homes, not a professional standing army. There was a while in medieval England when every able-bodied man was required to have a longbow and be trained in its use. In a country with a strong militia tradition--and in a D&D world, that ought to include pretty much everywhere--I should think you could call up as much as 10-20% of the population to defend a settlement, and do it on very short notice, too.

Obviously, militia wouldn't have nearly the training and discipline of a professional force, and an epic-level threat could often rout them by sheer terror. But don't underestimate the willingness of people to fight for their land.

I think you're drastically overestimating the utility and capability of such forces. The entire history of medieval warfare demonstrates the almost uniform total ineffectiveness of this kind of system. Norse raiding parties roved all over the countryside of northern France for 100 years looting practically at will and rarely, if ever, ran into serious opposition.

The problems are manifold. First of all the population is HIGHLY rural, so basically if you have a Duchy with say 250,000 people in it maybe 3-4 thousand of them might live in anything resembling a town. The rest are scattered hither and yon across the countryside. When the bad guys show up getting them mustered requires a very considerable amount of time. Remember, there is no system of communication besides sending people around the countryside at horse speed at best. Even a well oiled militia will probably take DAYS to muster. By then the action has long since played out.

The other issue here is that you simply cannot afford to be constantly calling up the militia. The same 20% of the population that are your militia are also your main pool of labor. Those people are out doing vital agricultural work.

Check out for instance Harald's response to the invasion of England by William. The Fyrd was called up, but most of them were unable to muster and Harald eventually engaged with a force of less than 10,000 men, probably much less, out of a population of at least a million.

There are other problems as well. Logistics was very poor and underdeveloped. Even if you COULD gather together a substantial number of fighters in one place they would run out of food in short order. Disease and other issues would ravage your army pretty quickly too. On the whole mass mobilizations were infeasible and ineffective in a medieval context. You might manage to get together a bunch of men and drive off moderate threats, but relying on a militia as any kind of feasible defense in the long term or against a major threat didn't even work in historical medieval Europe and would be unlikely to work in most D&D campaign worlds either.

Now look at it from the dragon's perspective. Dragons aren't dumb. What's the tradeoff here? If the dragon wins, it gets a paltry town's worth of loot; maybe a few trinkets from the mayor's house. If it loses--it dies. That's a bad gamble even at highly favorable odds. The richer targets, like a duke's castle, will be correspondingly more "hardened," with stone walls and professional soldiers guarding them.

The end result of this is that a dragon, even an elder or ancient, isn't going to just fly about wreaking havoc. When it gets hungry, it will raid an outlying settlement, snatch up some livestock or peasants from the farms on the periphery, and vanish back into the night. When it wants plunder, it will look for a merchant caravan. Direct dragon attacks on towns and cities will be rare, because they depend heavily on the dragon's ability to catch the town off guard. Once word spreads that a marauding dragon is ravaging the land, people will make plans and be ready for it.

I think actually the case from the dragon's perspective is quite good. He's enormously more mobile than any army. He's able to concentrate all of his force trivially on one spot, and can scout the enemy with impunity. He's going to ALWAYS strike unguarded places, and few places are going to be guarded because if the local humans muster a large force he's simply going to ignore it. In a few days the militia will go home, starve, etc. In the mean time he's out burning their farms, and they can't possibly defend more than a few of them. The defense is effectively a lost cause.

I'd say even a low paragon adult dragon won't find your average human society much of a challenge. Their only actual response that will be effective is to gather up a band of heroes and have them try to off the dragon.

And dragons are a really extraordinary case. They're one of the hardest foes for a "town guardsmen" force to take on--intelligent, highly mobile, with lots of area attacks and a big "shock and awe" factor. A typical high-level monster threat looks more like a gang of ogres or giants; they're big, they're bad, but they won't fare well against a fortified settlement, and a strong kingdom could mount a punitive expedition to hunt them down and wipe them out.

Well, dragons are certainly one of the toughest types of monsters in this scenario, but again look at what the Norsemen did in France. Defense in this case was largely ineffective. Now, they had ships (mobility) and their bases were practically invulnerable. A bunch of bands of giants and humanoids however could probably pull off raids without too much trouble.
 

I Remember, there is no system of communication besides sending people around the countryside at horse speed at best. Even a well oiled militia will probably take DAYS to muster. By then the action has long since played out.

Minor point: There are much faster signal systems than horseback: Beacons.

The chains of beacons along the Swedish coastline were in use before the written laws in the 12th century. The last time such a chain was manned was at the start of WW 1.

When the English navy was sighted outside Vinga on the west coast of Sweden during the Crimean War in 1854, and was mistaken for an invasion force, it took the news 24 hours to travel by beacon to the capital of Stockholm on the east coast, a distance of about 1000 km (620 US miles) along the coastline.
 

Minor point: There are much faster signal systems than horseback: Beacons.

The chains of beacons along the Swedish coastline were in use before the written laws in the 12th century. The last time such a chain was manned was at the start of WW 1.

When the English navy was sighted outside Vinga on the west coast of Sweden during the Crimean War in 1854, and was mistaken for an invasion force, it took the news 24 hours to travel by beacon to the capital of Stockholm on the east coast, a distance of about 1000 km (620 US miles) along the coastline.

Notable for its rarity. I mean you can certainly come up with signaling systems, it IS a magic world, but the point is that mustering any significant force of men was a pretty slow process. There were exceptions but few areas in medieval or ancient times had terribly effective militias. There can be exceptions, like the Swiss, maybe Spartans, etc. but typically these are associated with larger communities. You're not going to find too many of these kinds of things in PoLand. The DM can certainly decide to equip his militias with sending stones and lightning rails too, but then you have a whole different set of assumptions.

I mean as an interesting scenario for PCs to get involved in this would be cool. The local militia, unable to come to grips with Thargrax the Terrible without of course the assistance of the PCs. Now, I wouldn't really run that as an epic scenario, more like a good low paragon kind of thing, maybe high paragon depending on your settings tone.

In an epic scenario I'd say any militia would be at best a plot device. Yes, 100 minions with bows (even level 1 ones) can be pretty dangerous. But that's another point. Although the English mandated longbow practice practical considerations limited the number of men that were called up. Bows were expensive and thus limited, and by far not all men of the right age actually got sufficient training to be useful. Another consideration is that most medieval armies had such crappy supply that 2-3 arrows per man was quite typical.

Now, a bunch of militia and trained soldiers defending a castle? Sure, I can see them driving off a dragon attack. In the open, not really. Considering the dragon can strike quickly from any direction I doubt anyone outside arrow range of a heavily fortified area would be safe. Open battle at poor odds simply wouldn't happen anyway, Mr Dragon can burn crops until said army has starved.

And again with any other epic or high paragon monster threat it is perfectly feasible that a wealthy and well-organized state of some size or other can hold some of them off. Generally settings assume that most of the countryside is empty and large well-organized states are rare or don't exist.

You could have a more epic version of the dragon vs kingdom thing though with an invasion of dragons. Now, sure there can be castles and cities that can brush off a single dragon, but can they defeat the Lords of Scale? Probably not. Instead it would be PCs, maybe with some appropriate level allies in some scenarios taking on the enemy's leaders, leading battles, etc.
 

3e, 20th level:

Hit Points: 214
AC: 44
Attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22
Average Damage per Attack (including crits): 44.7.
Saving Throws: Fort +24, Ref +16, Will +14

30th-level 4E Essentials slayer fighter:

Hit Points: 237
AC: 44
Attack: +38
Average Damage per Attack (including crits): 60.64*
Defenses: Fort 49, Ref 44, Will 34

As you can see, they have nearly identical attack bonus, AC, and hit points--the 4E fighter has a slight advantage in two out of three, but nothing major.

I'd draw attention to a couple of things.

First, the 3e attack matrix would be 5 attacks at an average of +32. Which if its against an average AC of 44, for an average 44 damage. That means there is a 8/20 (40%) * 5 * 44 = 88 dam/rd. The 4e attack matrix would be 1 attack at +38. Which if it's against an average AC of 44, for an average of 60 damage = 15/20 (75%) * 1 * 60 = 45 dam/rd. I point this out to note this is a little closer than you may think.
Second, which you've already highlighted, it is very, very difficult to get a full attack action off. It is not at all hard to get an attack off in 4e, just a given. It's not a fair comparison to say this will happen 100% of the time, and the less it does, the closer they get.
 

Notable for its rarity. I mean you can certainly come up with signaling systems, it IS a magic world, but the point is that mustering any significant force of men was a pretty slow process. There were exceptions but few areas in medieval or ancient times had terribly effective militias. There can be exceptions, like the Swiss, maybe Spartans, etc. but typically these are associated with larger communities. You're not going to find too many of these kinds of things in PoLand. The DM can certainly decide to equip his militias with sending stones and lightning rails too, but then you have a whole different set of assumptions.

Oh, it's a real-world example that worked for a long++ time in one of the most sparsely populated areas of Europe, so I'd definitely say that it is relevant for PoL.

In a PoL setting, road-building will be rare. That means that waterways will tie people together, and landmasses separate them. Look at the old river civilizations (Nile, Eufrat/Tigris, Ganges, Yellow River), how the Greek civilization centered on their islands, or how the Norse built on the Danish straits, the Norwegian fjords and the Swedish archipelago and great lakes. Across water, sight carries. That means that signals like beacons and smoke is most relevant.
 

Actually, 4e, especially if you use inherent bonuses is more conducive to "large number of flunkies can take the big bad" since combat magic is nowhere near as wide-ranging or has an area of effect as large as previous editions.

A human town guard is level 3, a human veteran is level 6. Meaning for a human town guard, you have to be well into paragon range before their chance to hit actually drops below 25% (which inversely applies to high level opponents.Need to be in the mid teens before a creature actually has above a 75% chance to hit a town guard)
 

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