The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[AbdulAlhazred]

One epic daily, engagement is no longer the Dragon's choice. I made this point. If you assume a mortal population and epic creatures, then among the mortal population there are going to be epic characters. These have Don't Need to Hit effects like prone/dominate/etc and the ability to rapidly travel from place to place via portals or what have you, then 1,000 peasant archers and one of the mortal epic people who guard/rule/run the kingdom can take out any epic level monster. Since they can do so in two rounds the equation comes down to one daily from a mortal epic NPC = one dead epic creature that was attacking the town.

Not sure what the rules say on ranges, but flame simply doesn't travel that far. 500 feet is an enormous distance for flame to travel from a single source, being pushed only by the sheer breath-force of the dragon.

Why would the dragon come within a MILE of said militia? What purpose would it serve? The military situation is a militia that can march at say 10 miles a day, or maybe if you have a REALLY well trained force they might even make 40 miles on a good day, tops. OTOH you have a dragon that flies at basically 3x their speed. They can sit on top of exactly one target and guard it, until the food runs out. The dragon can just go around the countryside burning and pillaging, driving all the refugees in to help eat the army's food and making sure that everyone will starve. Then it goes home or gnaws on whatever it finds elsewhere until said militia inevitably disbands.

There is no physical danger to the dragon at all. The situation is fundamentally asymmetric. The peasants MIGHT arguably have a firepower advantage, but they have a zone of control that is very limited, 1/3 the speed of their adversary, and in any group smaller than say 500 are basically going to die horribly.

Yes, if there are epic PCs around then the EPIC dragon has a problem and the militia might be a useful resource for them in some fashion. PCs at that level have equivalent mobility and firepower. It is probably inevitable that there will be a meeting, but again the dragon really has no motive to go near the militia, not even miles near. The PCs can try to pull some ruse or whatever and make it happen (sounds fun) but left to its own devices the dragon will probably just guard its treasure and assume that the annoying humans will go away in a couple years. Or send its minions etc out to deal with them.

Anyway, the whole question was "do towns full of human militia keep epic threats in check". I think the answer is maybe kind of. They might work reasonably well on some threats and not at all on others. There are certainly MANY epic threats that it is hard to see being thwarted by JUST ordinary mostly level 1 minion kind of people.

And I don't think personally that 1:1000 humans are epic, nor 1:10000, nor even 1:1 million. My idea of epic is pretty much "you are it". Maybe in the world you will find a small number of other scattered figures of great power, but the PCs are the Jason or Hercules or Merlin of their age. Not every town and city (or even kingdom) can count on calling one out at need. OTOH the gods/fates/whatever tend to see to it that some show up at the very most critical time and place in history. Its sorta like Elan's Dad said in the last couple OotS, inevitable dramatic structure.

 

[Aulirophile]

Your definition is interesting, but even at 1:100,000 or 1:1,000,000 since it only takes one epic character to make the archers insta-win by ensuring the engagement happens the scenario is more like > epic creature attacks > local uses a scroll to send a pre-arranged message > epic character shows up within an hour at most > creature is forced to engage by the powers of said epic mortal (which isn't even worth bothering to argue about in 4e, particularly if you assume that said epic PC spent time "training" to be specifically prepared for said threats, a purpose built level 21 of any class is going to be able to force the dragon to engage). For starters, a single proning ability that can't miss or is an Effect (trivial) gets the dragon on the ground. Then you just keep slowing it at a range greater then it can hit (also relatively trivial with a purpose built-PC). Archers will get there and then it dies.

And that is an extremely favorable situation for the epic creature. Anything that can't fly will be even easier to deal with.

 

[pemerton]

If you assume a mortal population and epic creatures, then among the mortal population there are going to be epic characters.

My idea of epic is pretty much "you are it". Maybe in the world you will find a small number of other scattered figures of great power, but the PCs are the Jason or Hercules or Merlin of their age. Not every town and city (or even kingdom) can count on calling one out at need.

I agree with AbdulAlhazred on this one also. The rulebooks are a bit amibuguous, because each epic destiny description tends to talk about the experiences and path of previous mortals who have realised that epic destiny. My tendency is to treat those bits of text as illustrative examples of how the destiny might play out, rather than as canonical descriptions of the core D&D world.

the scenario is more like > epic creature attacks > local uses a scroll to send a pre-arranged message > epic character shows up within an hour at most > creature is forced to engage by the powers of said epic mortal (which isn't even worth bothering to argue about in 4e, particularly if you assume that said epic PC spent time "training" to be specifically prepared for said threats, a purpose built level 21 of any class is going to be able to force the dragon to engage).

I'm not sure if you really mean PC here, or rather NPC.

The notion that locals have scrolls to summon epic NPCs to help them kill attacking ancient dragons is entirely at odd with the world description in the DMG/DM's kit.

If we're talking about PCs, on the other hand, then we don't need to get into the territory of whether or not the minion archers kill the dragon, because the PCs do so anyway. Whether they do so by combat, by skill challenge or by a combination of the two depends upon how the players and GM want to run the encounter.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with AbdulAlhazred on this one also. The rulebooks are a bit amibuguous, because each epic destiny description tends to talk about the experiences and path of previous mortals who have realised that epic destiny. My tendency is to treat those bits of text as illustrative examples of how the destiny might play out, rather than as canonical descriptions of the core D&D world.

Well, it depends on the setting. The PCs could be the only epic heroes the world has ever known. They could be the most powerful amongst some nominal number of such heroes. There could be a long tradition of such heroes too. I always thought of those mentioned in fluff as figures of myth and legend that may have lived far in the past, like the Greek heroes to us.

I'm not sure if you really mean PC here, or rather NPC.

The notion that locals have scrolls to summon epic NPCs to help them kill attacking ancient dragons is entirely at odd with the world description in the DMG/DM's kit.

If we're talking about PCs, on the other hand, then we don't need to get into the territory of whether or not the minion archers kill the dragon, because the PCs do so anyway. Whether they do so by combat, by skill challenge or by a combination of the two depends upon how the players and GM want to run the encounter.

I think in terms of either NPC or PC I don't know how Aulerophile thinks even an epic character is going to get his dragon within range of his powers, certainly not while he has his 1000 peasants around. Not that it is impossible but it would be a worthwhile adventure goal. Of course any really worthy epic threat is going to have more depth than one creature. Even an epic dragon is likely to have epic mooks of some sort too. I don't really see how most of these kinds of threats are going to be dealt with at all WITHOUT an epic hero or two around. I think that was my point at the beginning. Either epic threats are latent, already operative and mostly likely in control of things, only appearing when the PCs manifest themselves, or growing to epic proportions during the PCs career. Or of course they can simply be located in far remote locations.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Either epic threats are latent, already operative and mostly likely in control of things, only appearing when the PCs manifest themselves, or growing to epic proportions during the PCs career. Or of course they can simply be located in far remote locations.

I think that is the basis for something that is very workable, and more flexible than is perhaps being considered. As long as the locals are willing to keep feeding a maiden to the dragon every season (or send youths to the Minotaur's lair or whatever appeasement is required), then the status quo can go on for some time. The heroes might even start from such a region. And this is also traditionally one of the reasons that the population is not totally enamored of such heroes--simply by existing they threaten to piss off some threat.

But eventually, the dragon asks for a maiden a month or a week, or a new ruler doesn't want to appease anymore. Then someone tries to sneak off to find a hero to fight back, even though not everyone agrees with this course.

You can easily play out some of this from a horror/unknown angle, too. I've gotten good milage out of fairly large communities that avoided dealing with predators from some dungeon complex, because deep down everyone knows that it is something awful. People stay away best they can, and try not to get caught out at night. Lots of people really do act that way when confronted with terrible threats--especially if some local sherriff has come to a gruesome end in the recent past.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, there are a lot of ways to play it . Basically I think the old 'why haven't the monsters eaten everyone long ago' thing is just one of those D&D tropes. There are plenty of ways to 'explain' it and some of them are fairly plausible, but ultimately a world full of dungeons and dragons and such is a trope, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it is fun.

 

[Dausuul]

At this point I'm going to concede the dragon argument to Alhazred. He's convinced me that dragons, and indeed any reasonably bright, moderately powerful flying monster, are beyond what a village militia can be expected to handle. A castle or fortified city could hold the beast at bay, but could not prevent the dragon laying siege if it so chose; a military force dispatched to hunt it down could only succeed by catching the beast napping in its lair. In general, to slay a dragon requires a high-level dragonslayer(s).

However, the discussion of dragons has shifted the focus of the discussion toward the single, individual epic threat. The original question was whether humanity could survive in a world where there was a substantial number of pre-existing epic threats (enough to plausibly provide a reasonable series of challenges to a group of epic-level adventurers).

I think the answer depends on a number of factors:

• What are the epic threats? Certain traits drastically increase a monster's "threat level" to a medieval military force: Intelligence, flight, and area attacks are three examples. The easiest foes to handle are the big dumb brutes that just hit really hard.
• How aggressive are the epic threats? Obviously, the more inclined they are to sit and lurk in their lairs instead of going out to wage war on humanity, the easier a time humanity will have.
• How organized are the humans? A decentralized "points of light" setting will have to rely on militia forces and will struggle with groups of epic foes. On the other hand, a powerful empire with a strong military could punish epic monsters for encroaching on its borders, or even wage a campaign of extermination.

This brings up a number of interesting possibilities. One relates to the "fallen empire" scenario, which is generally assumed to underlie the 4E points of light setting. If there was, up until recently, a powerful human empire controlling a wide swath of territory, the epic monsters may have learned to fear the empire and withdrawn before the might of its armies. Since epic monsters usually have long lifespans, their fear has been slow to fade; the villages of "points-of-light-land" are unknowingly shielded from destruction by the memory of their ancestors' strength*.

Another option, suitable for a more stable setting, is to have the points of light be rather bigger--towns which follow the medieval "knight and castle" model that helped repel the Vikings. When monsters threaten, the townsfolk flee to the local strong place along with their livestock, and the knights are summoned to deal with the problem. Of course, being specialized to fight big monsters rather than Viking raiders, these "knights" would look rather different from their historical equivalents; they'd probably resemble Mongol horse archers rather than plate-armored heavy cavalry.

And, of course, as Crazy Jerome points out, there's always the possibility that epic counters epic. Each region is dominated by a powerful epic creature or small group of epic creatures, and the locals have worked out some kind of living arrangement. Heroic and paragon-tier adventurers will have to work around these overlords, while epic-tier adventurers may confront them directly. (Dark Sun is a fair example of this.)

[size=-2]*This does of course raise the question of how the empire ever got started; maybe it was founded by epic heroes, now long dead.[/size]

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

True, there are a lot of factors involved in how society relates to epic monsters. You missed the "serve them/be ruled by them" option, which may well be pretty close to the 'just try to live underfoot' as I'd say DS is a bit of each. You want to stay below the SCs radar and if that fails you hope you can appease them or be useful to them. Sort of like the 'send a maiden to the dragon' thing too, just to a higher degree.

 

[pemerton]

Crazy Jerome, AbdulAlhazred and Dausuul - I can't posrep any of you at present but those last few posts are excellent!

 

[Tony Vargas]

My DM is very anxious to get us to Paragon Tier (so much so, that we level after prettymuch every session). She just wants to run stories with Paragon scope and theme.

I find I like Heroic, even low Heroic, but that may be in part because of tastes formed under earlier eds when the game fell apart at high levels. (In some cases 'high' meaning 9th).