The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sort of. It reduces you to zero HP but doesn't actually mean you die. So Epic Destiny features and powers can easily circumvent it. It's still pretty nasty though, but it doesn't quite get to SoD levels.

No, not quite, but then even 'you die' at level 30 is not quite world shattering for most PCs. And of course Orcus is otherwise pretty lame, so it kind of doesn't matter either. Eh, I always was more of a fan of Demogorgon anyway, and now he can kick Orcus' butt with one tentacle tied behind his back...

 

[Aegeri]

Demogorgon is pretty solid if upgraded to MM3 maths and you change his dual brain to automatically end charm, daze, and stun effects at the end of his turns. I also like to change his gaze of abyssal might from a daze, to forcing a PC to use their highest level encounter power attack against their nearest ally or be dazed and take 20 psychic damage (so they can choose to be dazed, or risk making the attack to get their full turn. If they can't attack/use the power then they just end up dazed instead. It makes for a tactical choice). I also bump up demogorgons damage against dazed creatures by 3d10.

Finally just because I'm sadistic he drops the incredibly worthless variable resistance and picks up Soul Stealer. Just for extra fun.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Demogorgon is pretty solid if upgraded to MM3 maths and you change his dual brain to automatically end charm, daze, and stun effects at the end of his turns. I also like to change his gaze of abyssal might from a daze, to forcing a PC to use their highest level encounter power attack against their nearest ally or be dazed and take 20 psychic damage (so they can choose to be dazed, or risk making the attack to get their full turn. If they can't attack/use the power then they just end up dazed instead. It makes for a tactical choice). I also bump up demogorgons damage against dazed creatures by 3d10.

Finally just because I'm sadistic he drops the incredibly worthless variable resistance and picks up Soul Stealer. Just for extra fun.

Yeah, that sounds about right . I'm stuck with one group now and they're in low Paragon, so who knows when or if they'll even get there so I can try it out, but I'm planning on a couple nice demon lord fights to cap things off when the time comes.

 

[pippenainteasy]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think we need revised rules for epic level combat. And improved epic level threats.
The new (post MM3) monsters are fine, but the epic ones need to be more hardcore, expecially the "named" ones, like archfiends, archfeys, gods and primordials.

Right now, the worst thing that can happen while facing a god, is being pushed 10 squares. It's ridiculous.

I think epic level monsters need powers like the old 3.5 "save or die" mechanics, or "save and drop to 0 hp" or even "save and be bloodied" type of attacks. On a regular basis. Top tier epic level monsters should have the power to kill the PCs (or severely cripple them) with one attack. And the PCs should know that. And fear that.

I mean, Lolth's poison (the poison of the most bad@SS spider in the universe) should KILL me if I fail a save!

We know that epic PCs are super powerful, and have many ways to avoidreduceredirectheal damage andor attacks andor effects, and are even able to get back from the dead almost without issues. Well, fine, but we (DMs) should give them a run for their money.

sorry for my bad english

Amusingly wotc chose not to stat out Moradin or Bane (supposed to be around level 37-39) because they felt nobody could realistically beat anyone above level 35.

 

[jcayer]

I wish I had them. My guys are due to face Vecna in a few sessions and unless I take him way over the top, they will trounce right through him. I dread this encounter because as the end of the campaign, I don't want them to cruise through it, but at the same time, epic is extremely hard to balance.

 

[keterys]

Well, it's Vecna... so you should make sure he doesn't face them head on easily. Ie, do everything you can to avoid being a block of tofu for the PCs to carve up. Yes, a PC can get some temporary bonuses for +9 attack and +20 damage and make 10 attacks with various means... and if the first pops his illusory duplicate, or he swaps with a minion, or he teleports away to the next room. Oh well.

Also, he knew they were coming, and planned around it. So, consider each of them individually, and have a tactic for defeating them. Make sure the hazards and accompanying monsters live up to that. It's the last fight of the campaign, so it's okay to kill a few people in the encounter too, so feel free to ratchet the difficulty up.

 

[pippenainteasy]

Vecna’s Aura (Healing, Necrotic) aura 10; any living creature that
starts its turn within the aura takes 50 necrotic damage. Any
undead creature that starts its turn within the aura regains 50
hit points.

Does Vecna benefit from this aura himself, or does being the origin point of the aura negate himself?

 

[S'mon]

I'm looking forward to running Epic Tier in the Wilderlands and Forgotten Realms. Both these worlds have plenty of Epic threats right there, without need for planar adventuring - I'm expecting to keep planar excursions more like brief delves, not 4 levels of Abyss-bashing.

Really, the impact 4e Epic PCs & critters automatically have on the setting is vastly less than even 15th level Wizards in 1e or 3e. The whole design is centred around *not* disrupting things!

The kind of plots I'm looking at:

1. Epic villains - plenty of BBEGs in the 21st-30th range, maybe a few gods supra-30th.
2. Epic monsters - rare, mostly big dragons, summoned demons, aberrations, hench-things of the Epic villains.
3. Epic warfare - huge wars, battles with tens or hundreds of thousands of warriors. Much more playable in 4e than 1e-3e's "We fly over the field at 1000'+ and fireball everything".
4. Epic politics - tied in to #1 and #3. Nation building, dynasty founding, dealing with established Epic peers.

 

[Delgar]

I've been running an online eberron campaign for 2 years and the players are only 8th level. I have plans to run it right through epic and even have plot lines in place to take me there, just need the time to get there. I'm hoping to have a weekend in DnD where we all get together soon, so that I can mash them through into paragon.

I don't know how it will all play out in the end but one of my players said if I die before I finish this campaign, he'll raise me from the dead and stangle me.

 

[S'mon]

Indeed. We generally used to bypass the villains army/servants (when possible) and go straight for the jugular (Command Tent, Throne Room, Divine Realm). A typical ultra-high level 'adventure' was probably 3-4 encounters. The whole idea of having 90 epic tier encounters building up to a confrontation with Orcus just seems a bit pedantic. Cut the head off the snake and the body dies.

Plan A: Get in - Kill The Guards - Kill Him - Get Out. End of.
Plan B: We need Macguffin 'x' to have a chance. Travel to the Place - Kill the Guards - Get It - Get Out - See Plan A.
Plan C: Infiltration, we need some piece of information (location of Macguffin 'x' maybe). Sneak In - Kill The Guards (and take their uniforms) - Find the Information - Get Out - See Plan B.
Plan D: We can't kill the BBEG directly (political reasons maybe, or just he is that powerful), so we have to weaken him indirectly. Find his weakness(es) - Exploit Them - Kill Some Guards anyway - Get Out - See Plan C.
Plan E: We need to Defend Something or Someone from the forces of the BBEG, who have invaded. We Are The Guards (so don't get killed) - Hold the Line - Attack Retreating Enemy - See Plan D for seeking revenge.

So most of the time, the goal will be simple (defeat the BBEG). In and of itself thats a very short adventure. You can expand it by putting more and more obstacles in the way and shifting the goalposts to different objectives.

However, you have to imagine that there is a limit to how far you can credibly stretch out a threat/theme before it gets a bit stale.

As Krusty's DM I just wanted to concur with this (I missed this thread first time round, reading through it now). In our 1e 'Epic' campaign, a typical Epic adventure such as an attack on the lair of a demon lord or god-entity like Druaga, or a battle with an enemy army & its god(s), or a quest to save a world by collecting the maguffins, or to save the multiverse by going back in time to restore the timeline, was never ever '30 ecounters over 3 levels of play'. It was typically more like 4 encounters over a single session.

There were lots of BBEGs. Some BBEGs took years and many efforts to finally defeat (Druaga), others could not be truly defeated, and needed to be avoided or confronted indirectly (Hel), others could even be allied with (Graz'zt). And some were one-shots destroyed on the first encounter (Wotan the Hanged God).

Personally I think the 'Dungeon Delve' 3-encounter model is a vastly, vastly better one for Epic play than is the 30-encounter 'Prince of Undeath'. I think that lengthy slogs are an appallingly bad choice of design for Epic, and the source of this belief that Epic is 'more of the same'.