The State of American Animation

[Chain Lightning]

You're totally correct Alzrius. But yah, I meant in a very basic kind of way. In the same way I can say the two houses are red. Which they are despite them being different on the inside.

Both have the young orphaned boy with hidden powers with the undeserved prejudice against them. Both are in a school. The whole trio thing too. 2 guys and a girl. Relationships are different, you're right...but the trio is there. Both stories has that cool geek dream scenario: there is a school for Wizards/Ninjas that you can go to.

Sure, there's so much more that makes these two series popular with kids. But I think the school setting is a big part of the recipe too. I mean, as a school kid in class daydreaming as you're being asked to multiplications, wouldn't you rather be in a school for Ninjas or Wizards? Personally, I would love to be in a school for Ninja Wizards. Okay, joking aside, I just meant those parts really. Obviously, the points you wrote make Naruto very very different than Harry Potter.

But I'm glad you pointed it out. Noting the differences clears up any misunderstanding I might have created that Naruto is just simply Harry Potter with ninjas instead of wizards.

 

[reanjr]

....but the core of it is this: doesn't matter who's better, Japan or America, doesn't matter if it can be done or not, because it can.....the thing is, that serious mature animated action adventure (the stuff people like us love to watch) are not being done in America enough. Don't you all agree?

I don't. I don't see much of a reason to do a serious animated movie when the same movie can be done with live action. I could see it being used as a niche market for inexpensive productions, but for mainstream movies, I think it would be a waste. A good example of where I see animation having a purpose is in the HBO series Spawn. HBO could not (at the time; they probably could now) have made that show live action. The expense would have been enormous. But making it an animated show brought it into the realm of possibility. With CG getting cheaper and cheaper every year, I think we'll see that animation has even lost that niche, leaving it only for the most fanciful of productions (a la children's television). Not to mention, after Sin City comes out we'll have that new fad of animation that will really drive the American animation market for the next half-decade. By the time it's over, CG will be even cheaper.

Let's face it, animation is an inferior medium in comparison to live-action for those who want realism. Thing is, its expensive to produce a tv series in live action when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy. You gotta scrape up a lot of money to do one decently. Like "Star Trek" and "Battlestar Galactica"....but even those guys have to skimp on a lot of stuff. Battlestar recently had to use the same p-90 submachine gun seen in Stargate during that prison hostage episode. If it was animation, it would've been cheaper to have the artist draw a new gun for that show. But to have your prop department make like 6 new guns just for that one show is expensive. Stargate is about going to different worlds, and yet...they seem to always go to pine wood evergreen forest worlds. If it was animation, you can draw an exotic locale each time.

That's why its nice if someone could do a seriouc sci-fi/fantasy animated show. I know some of you say that animation is for whimsical funny stuff only....but, with the medium, we can bring to life stories that live-action couldn't do. We can get more of the stories we like if another output of expression became available. Animation could be it. But in America, it isn't because of the industry. And that's what I think you have to agree with me on. That Japan has at least that over us. You may think they have bad stories or bad animation, but you gotta admit that at least they do it over there.

There's many productions I would like to see like this, but the truth of the matter is, they would be economic disasters even at their lowered cost. Animated films lose something (unless we're talking top-notch CG like Shreck or something like Gollum) of the "actor"'s personalities. I just don't think you can get an American audience to come back to an animated show again and again. And like I said, CG is getting cheaper all the time.

That's a live action show for adults. I'm talking about animation. Action/adventure animation. Our live action tv industry for adults has plenty of good shows and lots of strong well written female characters in lead roles.

OK, but I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Don't you have to have a serious animated series before you can have a strong, well-written female lead? There's nothing American about not having a strong, female lead (as you further state with examples like Aliens, Terminator, and mine, Alias). We just don't have serious animation.

And yes, the "hot chick" angle is brought up, but most don't really think that's a viable element to draw a male audience even though it clearly is. The problem is, (and I'm gonna use a live-action example for this one) when one exec says "okay, I'll do your hot chick thing " and does it...then it bombs ....they say, "See, it didn't work".

Hot female leads draw attention. Good stories maintain that attention. Or you can just go completely unsubtle, like Baywatch, and make the most successful show in the world.

Problem wasn't that the hot chick thing didn't work, it was because they forgot to take care of the other part that makes people wanna watch. That part being....a good story. In an article in Entertainment Weekly, a few studios were quoted saying that the reason why they think "Catwoman" and "Elektra" didn't do big numbers was because the audience isn't ready for strong action female leads. Rubbish....guys like this make me puke.

I'm not sure if good story was the problem with those movies. Because I never saw them, I don't know what the stories are. I don't know anyone who went to see them to find out if there was a good story, either. They were simply victims of poor marketing. They may be wonderful movies - or horrible ones; I just don't know. And the trailers didn't make me want to find out.

Not to mention, Elektra was a non-starter due to Ben Affleck's increasingly dull performances. Daredevil was just not that good (note, no mention of any kind of association between Daredevil and Elektra is made in the previews; but that doesn't fool the comic-book loving target audience).

Thankfully, the EW guy who wrote the article and said that wasn't the case with "Aliens" and "Terminator" now was it? Or like you said, "Alias".

 

[reanjr]

As I'd say to most who say they don't like anime, I believe you haven't seen the right anime shows. Anime grew out of and is an extension of manga, and so the fairest comparison to an American medium is American comic books... which suffer the same problems of sexism and even subtle misogyny. As a huge comic and anime fan, I do not find American attitudes to be significantly better, and although I love both media, you have to call a spade a spade.

That's just bull. I'm not a fan of anime. I have seen just about everything everyone always raves about. I think the problem is the confusion of anime as a genre. It's not. It's a medium. And as a medium, it is poor at expressing the types of movies I am a fan of.

The American TV and comic industry has failed for years to attract the young female audience. But large numbers of young females have gotten into anime and manga, like Ranma 1/2, Fruits Basket, Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou ("His and Her Circumstances"), Sailor Moon, and many others. Noir is one of the best action anime shows in recent years, starring two female assassins.

You mean like when my little sister's friends all sit around and watch Cartoon Network and Disney all day? Where are you getting this idea from that young girls do not like American TV?

But yes, there are definitely cultural differences in the romantic elements, and if you don't care for stories along those lines, that's perfectly fine. What's "good" and what's not depends heavily on our expectations (which is why the Matrix sequels, for example, are seen by so many as so bad). Also, often people just say that shows are "good", when what they really mean is, "it's good for me." I'd recommend different anime to different people, the same way I would for books, movies, TV shows, and so on. And most of the time when I talk about things that I personally like on these boards, I talk about what is good rather than simply raving, so that people at least have a better idea of what to expect and don't go into it with the wrong expectations.

You are going in with expectations that other people SHOULD like anime because you do. And your expectations are not being met, so you blame it the fact that "[they] haven't seen the right anime shows".

 

[reanjr]

Sort of. One part subject matter and one part execution. If I said, "There's this interesting movie -- it's about a bounty hunter who gets assigned one last assignment but feels conflicted as to whether he should carry it out," and then I added either "It's anime", "It's a French movie playing at the local independent theater," or "It was a big American summer blockbuster a few years back", most folks will come up with three slightly different pictures.

Slightly different? I don't think the French... and the Blockbuster... would have anything to do with one another. As far as anime is concerned; as I stated before, it's a medium, not a genre. Telling me it's anime tells me nothing about the mood of the movie. It could run the gamut between French and Blockbuster. I can picture either.

As to the latter, no argument. The average comic book is more than a little sexist. Even if the superheroine isn't weaker or dumber than the superhero, she's wearing a bikini. The notion that the guys are just as idealized and unrealistic as the gals is possibly true, but there's still a double standard going on there.

I'm confused as to how that is a double standard. If the guys are just as beefed up (and I've seen the crotch bulges in comics, so don't tell me they aren't) how is that two standards? It's one. Comic book characters are attractive. That's not sexist.

But as I said in my first post, I've grown up with that stuff, and learned to ignore it. It's harder for me to ignore the sexism in anime because the sexist tropes are different and new -- essentially, I haven't set up my ignore filter on anime cultural sexism yet, but I set it on American comics awhile ago.

As to the former (I haven't seen the right stuff), that's possibly true, but the only real exposure I've had has been people who like anime trying to get me to watch stuff and saying, "Dude, this is awesome, you have to watch it." If the anime-lovers are telling me to watch this stuff as the prime examples of the genre, and then it turns out to be drivel (or not drivel but not to my taste), that's going to give me certain baseline assumptions for the genre. I'd suggest that there needs to be a group of anime advocates advocating the good stuff.

Random side note: What's wrong with "Kim Possible"? KP is awesome. It's a show where the male and female lead are friends, it addresses at least the G-rated issues in a humorous way, the girls fight effectively while the guys are comic relief much of the time (KP and Shego as opposed to Drakken and Ron), and it has wonderful writing. I'd put Kim Possible up against, say, "Sailor Moon" as shows aimed at the same audience, and KP comes out worlds ahead as far as I can tell.

I don't love every episode, but then, I'm not a teenager, so it ain't really aimed at me.

Right on. Kim Possible is a wonderful show. Not my taste (nor am I a target), but it certainly beats out similar offerings I've seen from anime.

 

[reanjr]

What I am saying here is that: when it comes to Action/Adventure animation series in the U.S. (which are mostly based off toylines), its hard to pitch a show where the main character is female. Because I didn't want someone to retort with "that's not true, they have Power Puff Girls and Kim Possible". So I wrote ,"They only do lead females if its a musical or a slap stick/comedy show like "Power Puff Girls" or "Kim Possible".

That's just stating the obvious then, isn't it? You're basically just saying boys in America play with action figures and girls in America play with dolls. So what? And on top of that I don't remember an action/adventure show that wasn't slapstick/comedy since the 80s... American parents don't like violence or sex in their children's programming. ... I just realized how fascist the phrase "Children's Programming" sounds...

Don't worry, I know. Its a cartoon comedy aimed at young girls. What I accuse of not being "Alias" was "Catwoman" and "Elektra". Sorry if there was any confusion,but I thought I had written it clearly.

I was confused on that point. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[reanjr]

Anime is not a medium; that's just a silly claim that shows a lack of understanding of what media is (and I've heard it in many other places as well.) It's a style, or perhaps a grouping of related styles.

Yes, it's a style. But it's a style that has been turned into a platform. It's gone beyond style. It is as distinct from traditional American animation as traditional American animation is from live action.

 

[reanjr]

I'm saying there's more to anime than what many people have seen on American television.

If American television was the only exposure an American had to anime, they would be MORE apt to enjoy it rather than less. American television only shows that anime that is fit for American mass consumption.

 

[reanjr]

Which brings up another odd anime convention that I've always been curious. They sure love to show these flashing panty shots, don't they? I've heard anecdotally that Najica has a lot. What's that all about?

It's about the objectification of women, what else?

 

[reanjr]

...or who figure I just haven't watched enough Gundam, yet. No, no...I've watched TOO MUCH Gundam, son, that's the problem.

Yes, I find the "You need to watch 3 hours before it gets good" defense very amusing. If you need to watch that much before it gets good... then it's not that good.

 

[reanjr]

Don't remember a protector. I remember in the first episode she went off with her boyfriend for a "romantic tryst" of sorts and he got killed in the act of fondling her breast or something like that. And, uh... there was a Japan-pop song during the closing credits?

Are you being fecetious or actually trying to be more specific? I can't tell...