The stupid expectations of some DMs...

[rounser]

lazy DM's killed the Hero...I seldom have felt my good deeds make any impact while playing

Indeed, it seems that some DMs take PC heroism for granted, and only complain when they don't get it...probably because it makes their plot hooks harder to bait, or doesn't live up to the tone of campaign they want to run, but can't see that they are actively discouraging.

There seems to be a lack of respect or reward for PC heroics in some campaigns - point in case being a recent thread in which the town that gets saved by the PCs pays them no gratitude nor respect, and the DM even has the blacksmith and town guard beat them up after a minor argument. I'd expect that it's difficult for the players (let alone the PCs) to work up the motivation to perform any more heroics on behalf of such NPC ingrates in such a world.

In short, I think that if you treat PC heroics with respect as a DM, then your players/PCs are more likely to indulge in them. If you're really cutting edge, you might even want to consider intangible rewards for heroics, such as a little respect and gratitude from NPCs from time to time, maybe even awe...or not always upstaging PCs with NPC heroics in order to make them feel insignificant again.

 

[JLXC]

JLXC you may be an exception. Your points are well made on the subject of Hero... your style is not common. I actually think you've inspired me to a post..... this one on: lazy DM's killed the Hero.

In order to play hero there has to be some incentive, not from a character point of view, but for the player. I seldom have felt my good deeds make any impact while playing, I never have felt comfortable with showing mercy..... its hard to "Play" at mercy when you know they'll probable kill you whole home town for your effort.

As an aside... nice reply.

So what do you think JLXC? Did the lazy DM kill the Hero?

I'm sorry to hear that. People, is that why you feel being good is so dangerous? Your DM just throws it in your face and you never get any real credit? Your good deeds just backfire all the time?

That SUCKS.

If any DM's are reading this, ummm... you may be responsible personally for making your players feel that Good is Dumb. Sure some Evils just come back, but now and then it makes sense for a Good deed to get REWARDED. Not just money but in "good strokes" too. (Good strokes is when NPC's do things for a player just BECAUSE the character is so Good that karma comes to their aid in their desperate hour!) This does not mean if you act good you can't get killed... sorry but it's all to easy to die being good. But in D&D fer cryin' out loud you CAN have Fate/Gods/Kharma give the player a nice bonus now and then! COME ON!!!

I have to go with Limper here that a Lazy DM can CERTAINLY kill the Hero! If one player is a greedy ass, the other players can roll their eyes and keep him from screwing up too much. If the DM is just cold and insensitive to someone trying to make a good way in an evil world, well that can send a whole Campaign to HELL without a Plane Shift!

 

[reapersaurus]

Shard O' Glase - I appreciate you picking up the discussion for me while i was gone this weekend...
Good job, too (to a few others, also)

I was truthfully getting tired of even bothering to 'discuss' DM problems with the overwhelming preponderance of "DM's aren;t like that!" on this board.

People - it's ridiculous that so many DM's can not see their own faults.

Which do you think is more likely?
That 4 to 6 people are wrong, and have misunderstood one person, and don't know the "proper" way to RPG, or is it more likely that the one (flawed human being) person is in the wrong, and is being misled by his limited perception?

I have been saying this for a year and a half -
when there is a problem in a group between players and DM, it is by default the DM's job to show that it is not his fault, since it is much more likely due to his mistakes.

What's that I said?
"A DM mistake?"

Impossible, the majority of DM's on this board think.

The DM is always right!
By definition!

Wrong.

 

[reapersaurus]

JLXC - you are so off in my mind.

You are bringing (in actual fact, we all are) your own game too much into this.

You are a DM that SO rewards (and expects) Lawful Stupid behavior, that your player doesn't even collect money or treasures from his good deeds!

You subsidize his stupid gaming decisions by actual diety-intervention!
All to make this "heroic" ideal be effective in your game world.

That's just bad play, in my judgemental view.

(Having said that, of course the point is to have fun, as you so obviously state - big news flash there, BTW.
So whatever floats your boat is fine, but I think you go WAY to far in pursuit and support of illogical play.)

 

[reapersaurus]

Most players just don't have what it takes to be heroes. Probably because most modern people don't even understand the concepts of heroism or 'Good'.

Most player's don't deserve the game you hand them. They squander it completely and it just gets frustrating.

Most DM's just don't have the sense of self-criticalness to learn from their mistakes.
Furthermore, most PEOPLE lack the objectivity to see their own mistakes, nor admit them to themselves even when pointed out quite clearly by others.
(oh, i forgot - it would be definition be a PLAYER pointing out the DM's mistakes, so that would be automatically dismissed by the infallible DM)

Most DM's don't deserve the characters that are toiled and thoought deeply over, then handed to the DM and nary even read, never commented on.
They squander it completely and would never think of modifying their precious world-baby that they have sweated over (completely in isolation, mind you) and given birth to.
God forbid they actually incorporate *gasp* a plebian player's good ideas into their baby's development.

Lovingly creating every scrap of the world by themself is 90% of a DM's pleasure in gaming, didn't you all know that?

 

[Falcon]

Reaper, do you even enjoy playing RPG's, and/or game with friends?

Your statements are so broad and sweeping, that most DMs will respond to them. I object to your usage of "Most DMs do X and Y," as I have most decidedly NOT had that experience in five 3E campaigns (I DM one), and 28 years of playing D&D.

Your statements are every bit elitist and intractible as those from whom you wish to show your superior moral player equivalent.

How many campaigns have you or do you play in? How many do you DM? Any friends in any of these?

 

[JLXC]

JLXC - you are so off in my mind.

You are bringing (in actual fact, we all are) your own game too much into this.

You are a DM that SO rewards (and expects) Lawful Stupid behavior, that your player doesn't even collect money or treasures from his good deeds!

You subsidize his stupid gaming decisions by actual diety-intervention!
All to make this "heroic" ideal be effective in your game world.

That's just bad play, in my judgemental view.

(Having said that, of course the point is to have fun, as you so obviously state - big news flash there, BTW.
So whatever floats your boat is fine, but I think you go WAY to far in pursuit and support of illogical play.)

HAH Thanks for bringing the cynicism back! It was getting way touchie feely!

You are SOOO OFFF yourself it's funny. You're talking about an imaginary game, where good and evil are real physcial and spiritual forces, and you STILL spout "Lawful Stupid". Not on my watch mister!

Just because You might not be able to imagine people doing Good Deeds without Self Gain does not sumarily wipe out the concept in the whole universe, Sorry.

Note to Self: Capitalism is alive and well as a spiritual force.

There is another side to the coin. In a world where Gods Watch and interact with mortals when EXACTLY does it make sense for them to act? Never? Even in a setting where it's established they DO exactly that? Say the Forgotten Realms? Clerics can Bring back the DEAD! They can heal any wound. But you cannot imagine one of these Gods interacting with mortals. Surprise. They do. Spells and abilities prove that. Paladins prove that. What's your point? You refuse to see what is REAL because you don't agree?

Let me add that do Clerics in your game EVER interact with their God? Do they get dreams? Portents? Anything? Spells? This interaction is normal for many clerics of higher level (9+). I can't imagine anyone scorning it. It's part of the game fer crying out loud. Makes me wonder if I was Trolled successfully.

As for the ONE campaign where the player is not worried about money, so WEIRD for a Druid/Ranger who lives in the woods I might add , Um yeah? You may feel different but that in NO WAY invalidates the concept of HERO. There are HEROES in many games and books and movies who scorn financial reward. Are you SOOOO deluded to think that anyone who does this is "Lawful Stupid?"

I understand that many people love SHADES OF GRAY. Nobody is really good or evil, there is no alignments, people who do something for nothing are morons who should be exterminated.... well GOODIE. I take it all your Gods in the game are uncaring insensitive louts, even the "Good" ones, and nobody ever does good deeds because it's right. That's for sissies. I understand. Just realize that in worlds where Good and Evil are REAL and can attack you, that SOME people might take the concepts seriously.

 

[Evilboy]

Oi, did I miss the big green regenerating creature or is it getting unusually hot in here?

I'm suprised that so much attention is being put into whose fault it is, as if one individual is to blame and it even matters in the end.

Most problems in games, insofar as my experiences are concerned, stem from numerous different sources, on the DM and player side of the screen. Many aren't even one side being "mean", but just a conflict of tastes or ideas.

That aside, I fail to see what fault will solve in any situation here. Fine, its 100% the player's fault. It's 100% the DM's fault. Nothing changes.

D&D, and RPGs in general, are generally cooperative games. Sure, they can be competetive in play mechanics, but everyone has the same goal, to enjoy themselves, and usually players and DMs enjoy the game more when everyone around them is as well.

The solution in most cases tends to be better communication between DM and players. Make sure that everyone on both sides of the screen understands what type of game is desired and what type of game is being played, and instead of decrying players as stupid or DM's as arrogant, try to find out what each side thinks the actual problem is. Player / DM animosity has failed to solve anything in any game I've ever played, and I'm guessing that track record is going to hold for quite some time.

- Evilboy

 

[LostSoul]

Another thing I dislike is a DM who wants the game to be run in his style, while all the players want a different one, and the DM forces them to play his way (or punishes them when they don't).

Call this "DM Dictatorship".

 

[JLXC]

I agree with the above posters. Games are made by people working together.

Example: I am the DM. I wanted to play the RttToEE as a "Good" vs. Evil romp. I wanted larger than life Good. The players all turned green. They wanted to play mercenaries who got dragged into this thing for reasons that would make sense to each character. I as the DM didn't want this, but they all did, so I CHANGED the game so that it would work for their party well. It has been great fun, and the FUNNY thing is my players are generally playing Good aligned players anyways. They just wanted WIGGLE room so they can be more mercenary when they want. NO PROBLEMO.

We are having fun, and they are not turning into Evil Scumbags, and that's good for me. I HATE playing in an Evil PC game, and I told them I DREW THE LINE at that. If they turned all Evil I would not run the game. We compromised and much fun is had.

I cannot believe games are not run like that??!?!

Maybe it's because we are all good friends, and we all KNOW we can just get together to "hang out" and not even play at all if we want? I'm sorry it's so bad out there for games right now.