The sub-optimal challenge

[AllisterH]

We've been focusing on the uber-combos, but I want to focus on the other extreme.

The sub-optimal build. Just how little system mastery does a person need in 4E truly?

Note: I said system mastery proof and not idiot-proof thus for example, it be safe to assume that a fighter character is going to increase their STR at least most of the time when appropriate instead of say using their stat bumps to increase their INT and CHA.

Here's a concept for example.

Pair of half-elven twins. The male one is a TWF fighter that wields a warhammer and a throwing hammer and sees himself as a protector of his little sister.

(Thus, must be multiclassed and use all of the multiclass feats with either ranger or paladin)

The sister wields a staff (bequeathed to her from their parents) but at level 11 hears a calling to the priesthood and becomes a cleric.

(Thus, must have all multiclass feats by level 11 and becomes a wizard/cleric)

Now, at the end (both become Eternal Seekers), and at the tier breakpoints, how badly do this duo do against level appropriate foes?

Totally unworkable concepts or can we make this be decent?

As an aside, that raise another question. What's the "midpoint" in effectiveness?

 

[tombowings]

Honestly, it's true that there is very little system mastery needed, up to a point. I've been running a lot of 4E games since I got my hands of the rules. EVERY character that has grown organically (starting and first level and growing from there has been great. No character has been weak compared to level appropriate monsters. Many of these gamers are quite young as well (my little brother for instance plays will me gaming group sometimes).

However, when you making characters starting at higher than level 10 (or so) the options are a little too much for new players to handle and they sometimes make choices that don't work very well together (powers that all do roughly the same thing). The way your and your group's powers interact is a huge part of character power; without getting a feel of our lower level powers, it is harder to judge the effects of the more complex, higher level powers.

In conclusion, the retaining rules are AWESOME!

 

[Particle_Man]

The sub-optimal builds probably come down to stuff that can't be retrained, so race choice, class choice, ability score allocation would be areas to watch.

I would say that allocating ability scores without keeping an eye out for feats you want later might lead to difficulties down the road.

On the other hand, skill training and skill focus are nice pairs of feats, so a sub-opt character that doesn't get "feat of I win" can still go for "feats of I shine in other ways" without worrying about prereqs.

 

[Contrail]

Hmm, well, I'm not sure how effective these characters would actually be, but I've tried to stat up your suggested half-elven duo at various levels. Please forgive my somewhat uncreative names for them. Also, the stats are fairly bare-bones to keep the length down. I've marked powers from multi-class feats with an *, the dilettante powers with *d, the paragon multi-class powers with *p, and the epic multi-class powers with *e.

[sblock=Animus]Animus
Male Half-elf Paladin/Ranger 1

Str 16
Con 12
Dex 13
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 16

Skills: Athletics*, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate, Religion

At-Will: Bolstering Strike, Valiant Strike
Encounter: Shielding Smite, Twin Strike*d, Hunter's Quarry*
Daily: Paladin's Judgement

Feats: Warrior of the Wild

Animus
Male Half-elf Paladin/Ranger 11

Str 19
Con 13
Dex 14
Int 9
Wis 15
Cha 19

Skills: Athletics*, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate, Religion

At-Will: Valiant Strike, Twin Strike*
Encounter: Shielding Smite, Hit and Run*d, Hunter's Quarry*, Disruptive Strike*, Benign Transposition, Sweeping Whirlwind*p
Daily: Paladin's Judgement, Hallowed Circle, Swirling Leaves of Steel*
Utility: Sacred Circle, Evade Ambush*, Noble Shield

Feats: Warrior of the Wild, Healing Hands, Novice Power, Two-Weapon Fighting, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Two-Weapon Defense

Animus
Male Half-elf Paladin/Ranger/Eternal Seeker 21

Str 22
Con 14
Dex 15
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 22

Skills: Athletics*, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate, Religion

At-Will: Valiant Strike, Twin Strike*
Encounter: Hit and Run*d, Hunter's Quarry*, Benign Transposition, Sweeping Whirlwind*p, Renewing Smite, Two-Weapon Eviscerate*
Daily: Swirling Leaves of Steel*, Bloodied Retribution, Crusader's Boon, Cruel Cage of Steel*p
Utility: Sacred Circle, Evade Ambush*, Noble Shield, Undaunted Stride*p, Angelic Intercession

Feats: Warrior of the Wild, Healing Hands, Novice Power, Two-Weapon Fighting, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Two-Weapon Defense, Weapon Focus (Hammer), Action Surge, Human Perseverance, Toughness, Durable, Skill Focus (Heal)

Animus
Male Half-elf Paladin/Ranger/Eternal Seeker 30

Str 24
Con 14
Dex 15
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 24

Skills: Athletics*, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate, Religion

At-Will: Valiant Strike, Twin Strike*
Encounter: Hit and Run*d, Hunter's Quarry*, Sweeping Whirlwind*p, Two-Weapon Eviscerate*, Sublime Transposition, Restricting Smite
Daily: Cruel Cage of Steel*p, Wounding Whirlwind*, To the Nine Hells with You, Even Hand of Justice
Utility: Sacred Circle, Evade Ambush*, Noble Shield, Undaunted Stride*p, Angelic Intercession, Cleansing Burst, Safe Stride*e

Seeking Destiny: Divine Recovery

Feats: Warrior of the Wild, Healing Hands, Novice Power, Two-Weapon Fighting, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Two-Weapon Defense, Weapon Focus (Hammer), Action Surge, Human Perseverance, Toughness, Durable, Skill Focus (Heal), Astral Fire, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Mobility, Improved Initiative, Improved Second Wind[/sblock]
[sblock=Anima]Anima
Female Half-elf Wizard/Cleric 1

Str 8
Con 12
Dex 13
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 13

Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, Nature, Religion*

At-Will: Magic Missile, Scorching Burst
Encounter: Burning Hands, Sacred Flame*d
Daily: Sleep/Flaming Sphere, Healing Word*

Feats: Initiate of the Faith

Rituals: Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Make Whole

Anima
Female Half-elf Wizard/Cleric 11

Str 9
Con 13
Dex 14
Int 19
Wis 19
Cha 14

Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, Nature, Religion*

At-Will: Scorching Burst, Lance of Faith*
Encounter: Burning Hands, Sacred Flame*d, Fire Shroud, Break the Spirit*, Searing Light*p
Daily: Sleep/Flaming Sphere, Healing Word*, Fireball/Web, Astral Defenders*
Utility: Expeditious Retreat/Shield, Cure Serious Wounds*, Blur/Resistance

Feats: Initiate of the Faith, Astral Fire, Novice Power, Improved Initiative, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Human Perseverance

Rituals: Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Make Whole, Brew Potion, Magic Circle, Consult Mystic Sages, Detect Object

Anima
Female Half-elf Wizard/Cleric/Eternal Seeker 21

Str 10
Con 14
Dex 15
Int 22
Wis 22
Cha 15

Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, Nature, Religion*

At-Will: Scorching Burst, Lance of Faith*
Encounter: Sacred Flame*d, Break the Spirit*, Searing Light*p, Prismatic Burst, Combust
Daily: Sleep/Flaming Sphere, Healing Word*, Fireball/Web, Astral Defenders*, Fire Storm*p
Utility: Expeditious Retreat/Shield, Cure Serious Wounds*, Blur/Resistance, Mass Cure Light Wounds*p, Displacement/Stoneskin

Feats: Initiate of the Faith, Astral Fire, Novice Power, Improved Initiative, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Human Perseverance, Spell Focus, Action Surge, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Arcana), Skill Focus (Religion), Skill Focus (Nature)

Rituals: Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Make Whole, Brew Potion, Magic Circle, Consult Mystic Sages, Detect Object, Eye of Warning, View Location, Consult Oracle, View Object

Anima
Female Half-elf Wizard/Cleric/Eternal Seeker 30

Str 10
Con 14
Dex 15
Int 24
Wis 24
Cha 15

Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, Nature, Religion*

At-Will: Scorching Burst, Lance of Faith*
Encounter: Sacred Flame*d, Searing Light*p, Combust, Healing Torch*, Sunburst*e
Daily: Healing Word*, Astral Defenders*, Fire Storm*p, Seal of Protection*e, Legion's Hold/Meteor Swarm
Utility: Expeditious Retreat/Shield, Cure Serious Wounds*, Blur/Resistance, Mass Cure Light Wounds*p, Displacement/Stoneskin, Mass Fly/Mordenkainen's Mansion, Purify*e

Seeking Destiny: Arcane Spirit

Feats: Initiate of the Faith, Astral Fire, Novice Power, Improved Initiative, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Human Perseverance, Spell Focus, Action Surge, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Arcana), Skill Focus (Religion), Skill Focus (Nature), Font of Radiance, Irresistible Flame, Spell Accuracy, Arcane Mastery, Action Recovery

Rituals: Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Make Whole, Brew Potion, Magic Circle, Consult Mystic Sages, Detect Object, Eye of Warning, View Location, Consult Oracle, View Object, Loremaster's Bargain, Observe Creature[/sblock]
-Contrail